On Nov 4, 3:09 am, Pneuma <frank.sp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 3 ND college students found dead in sunken Jeep > By BLAKE NICHOLSON > Three North Dakota college softball players believed to have been on a > stargazing trip were found dead inside a Jeep after signals from their > last desperate phone calls helped lead authorities to a rural farm pond.
I can't imagine that alcohol wasn't involved since they could have gotten out of the car in time with such a small amount of water.
One negative aspect of automatic windows is that if the car is off, you can't get the windows down. Still they "should" have had enough time to escape by the door.
On Nov 4, 3:30 pm, SoCally <foaa...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I can't imagine that alcohol wasn't involved since they could have > gotten out of the car in time with such a small amount of water.
> One negative aspect of automatic windows is that if the car is off, > you can't get the windows down. Still they "should" have had enough > time to escape by the door.
There's several things I can't figure out.
They called their friends, and asked for help (rather than calling 911). They went out "stargazing" frequently. They were three ultra-strong women (sports stars at the college), who should have been able to escape.
I'm sure toxicology will turn up something. You don't have to go out onto a dirty road near Dickinson, ND to "stargaze". There's not a lot of light pollution out in those rural areas. (But you might go out there, if you want privacy for something else.)
> 3 ND college students found dead in sunken Jeep > By BLAKE NICHOLSON > Three North Dakota college softball players believed to have been on a > stargazing trip were found dead inside a Jeep after signals from their > last desperate phone calls helped lead authorities to a rural farm pond.
At least one of them should have been roadgazing. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Good point. Maybe something just went wrong with the brakes? Sounds like the 2 passengers made calls while the driver struggled. If they left the road and were driving through a field, maybe they didn't even see the pond until the last moment? Can someone tell me about the dynamics of opening car doors underwater? How much pressure keeps doors closed in 12 ft of water? Anything to prevent one from breaking out windows? Would the sudden inflow of water prevent one from holding one's breath long enough to escape after the pressure equalized?
jc (reminded of Jessica Savitch who's car was only submerged under 4 ft of water)
Pneuma wrote: > On Wed, 04 Nov 2009 23:02:42 GMT, "JonesieCat" <jonesiecac...@yahoo.com> > wrote:
>> Can someone tell me about the dynamics of opening car doors >> underwater?
> You have to roll down the window to let in the water to equalize the > pressure or the door will never open.
> Pneuma
I don't know that electric car windows would work underwater - wouldn't they short out? Breaking the windows would be the next option. I wonder if they had anything hard to do that. Sad situation.
> Pneuma wrote: >> On Wed, 04 Nov 2009 23:02:42 GMT, "JonesieCat" <jonesiecac...@yahoo.com> >> wrote:
>>> Can someone tell me about the dynamics of opening car doors underwater?
>> You have to roll down the window to let in the water to equalize the >> pressure or the door will never open.
>> Pneuma
> I don't know that electric car windows would work underwater - wouldn't > they short out? Breaking the windows would be the next option. I wonder if > they had anything hard to do that. Sad situation.
There was an "escape from disaster" show that said most would operate under water. But.....you have to wait to roll them down (or open the door) because if the water levels aren't equalized, the rush of water that comes in, will be too foreful.
> 3 ND college students found dead in sunken Jeep > By BLAKE NICHOLSON > Three North Dakota college softball players believed to have been on a > stargazing trip were found dead inside a Jeep after signals from their > last desperate phone calls helped lead authorities to a rural farm pond. > The vehicle was found submerged in only about 12 feet of water. The cause > of the deaths was not immediately known Tuesday when the bodies were > discovered. Investigators were scheduled to hold a news conference > Wednesday morning. Autopsies were planned. > Police Lt. Rod Banyai said he believed the women were inside the Jeep when > they called for help late Sunday night, but he did not know whether the > vehicle was under water when the calls were made. > "At this time, foul play is not suspected," Banyai said Tuesday night. > Investigators were working to determine whether the vehicle had any > defects or whether alcohol was involved, he said. > The victims were Kyrstin Gemar, 22, of San Diego; Afton Williamson, 20, of > Lake Elsinore, Calif.; and Ashley Neufeld, 21, of Brandon, Manitoba. > The Dickinson State University students were believed to be in the white > 1997 Jeep Cherokee when two of their friends received telephone calls late > Sunday night. But the lines quickly went dead. > Police described the first as a "very scratchy" call for help in which one > of the Dickinson State University students said they were near a lake and > water. > Banyai said the pond where the women were found was a couple miles off a > road on a farm northwest of Dickinson, a city of 16,000 people. It's about > 100 miles west of Bismarck and 60 miles east of the Montana state line. > Banyai said "pings" - signals sent between cell phones and provider towers > - from the women's phone calls helped narrow the search area. Searchers > found vehicle tracks leading into the pond Tuesday afternoon. > "After that was located, the plane flew over the top and it could see that > there was a white object in the water," Banyai said. > The vehicle was pulled from the pond about two hours later. > Gemar's father, Lenny, had said it was not uncommon for his daughter and > her friends to go stargazing on the spur of the moment. Tuesday night, > Lenny Gemar was among those who attended a prayer service inside a packed > Dickinson State student center ballroom. > "It's the worst day of my life. A parent shouldn't be burying a child. > Kyrstin had such a bright future ahead of her," he said. > Neufeld's mother, Bev Neufeld, said her family was trying to be strong. > "That's what she would want, and we have so much support here (on > campus)," Bev Neufeld said. "We know how much Ashley loved this school. I > would just like everybody to remember Ashley's smile and personality." > The 2,700-student university listed Gemar as a senior business major who > played third base on the softball team. Neufeld was a senior outfielder > working on a psychology degree, and Williamson, a junior, was a pitcher > majoring in psychology with a minor in coaching. > "I'm sure it will be difficult for quite a while. But we know that they'll > be there with us. They would want us to play," softball teammate Jessica > Huseby of Hamilton, Mont., said at the prayer service. "We just know > they're going to be the 10th, 11th and 12th players on the field with us."
Pond temp is likely to be about a month behind air temp, maybe plus a degree or two from sun warming. The average October temperature in Dickinson is lower 40's.
Fifty degrees would be painfully cold water. In the time it takes for water fill the car and equalize pressure (what 30 secs? a minute?) a well-dressed person could get cold.
Finding the surface in 12 feet of water at night might be a challenge. There was a full moon, but they may have muddied the water when the jeep entered it.
With two of them over 21 and the students lviing at college, it doesn't seem likley that they would have hit the road to go drinking. Smoking pot could be a different thing I suppose, but they were athletes.
The pond was "a couple of miles" of a road. Perhaps they were calling friends to maybe get on a computer and figure out where they were? I mean, before they hit the pond. I'm not sure if that is technologically plausible. Maybe they had GPS coordinates, but no GPS map?
If there was some kind of a boat launch, one might follow it into the water thinking the dark, flat stuff might be pavement, I suppose.
> On Wed, 04 Nov 2009 23:02:42 GMT, "JonesieCat" <jonesiecac...@yahoo.com> > wrote:
>>Can someone tell me about the dynamics of opening car doors >>underwater?
> You have to roll down the window to let in the water to equalize the > pressure or the door will never open.
> Pneuma > -- > Read the United States National Health Insurance Act > outline @ http://www.cprights.org/plan.php?plan=8 > Total Estimated Cost: $1.8 Trillion/year
There is a device that is advertised for helping a person break out of a car. Supposedly, it is strong enough to break a car window (I've always been a bit dubious), and it also has a blade for cutting seat belts. Most people don't carry them in the car, of course, but I wonder if they really are functional. Anyone know?
>>>Can someone tell me about the dynamics of opening car doors >>>underwater?
>> You have to roll down the window to let in the water to equalize the >> pressure or the door will never open.
>> Pneuma >> -- >> Read the United States National Health Insurance Act >> outline @ http://www.cprights.org/plan.php?plan=8 >> Total Estimated Cost: $1.8 Trillion/year
> There is a device that is advertised for helping a person break out of a > car. Supposedly, it is strong enough to break a car window (I've always > been a bit dubious), and it also has a blade for cutting seat belts. Most > people don't carry them in the car, of course, but I wonder if they really > are functional. Anyone know?
> MaryL
Yeah, I think it's called a tire iron and a box cutter. ;)
I don't know about a blade for cutting a seat belt; if you're that trapped, or the car is that crushed, can you even get out?
My SUV has two handy sun roofs that would work just great as escape hatches, with controls way up at the top. The car's designed to plow through fairly-deep water, and then even float....so I've got it all planned out. Just in case a sudden lake appears in the desert and I'm right there at the time, and drive into it.
>>>>Can someone tell me about the dynamics of opening car doors >>>>underwater?
>>> You have to roll down the window to let in the water to equalize the >>> pressure or the door will never open.
>>> Pneuma >>> -- >>> Read the United States National Health Insurance Act >>> outline @ http://www.cprights.org/plan.php?plan=8 >>> Total Estimated Cost: $1.8 Trillion/year
>> There is a device that is advertised for helping a person break out of a >> car. Supposedly, it is strong enough to break a car window (I've always >> been a bit dubious), and it also has a blade for cutting seat belts. >> Most people don't carry them in the car, of course, but I wonder if they >> really are functional. Anyone know?
>> MaryL
> Yeah, I think it's called a tire iron and a box cutter. ;)
> I don't know about a blade for cutting a seat belt; if you're > that trapped, or the car is that crushed, can you even get > out?
> My SUV has two handy sun roofs that would work just > great as escape hatches, with controls way up at the top. > The car's designed to plow through fairly-deep water, and > then even float....so I've got it all planned out. Just in > case a sudden lake appears in the desert and I'm right > there at the time, and drive into it.
> Note that the electric car windows *will* work underwater > for awhile, once the pressure is equalized.
> Kris
It's actually a tool that seriously is sold for that purpose. It is supposed to be mounted close to the driver so it can quickly be located and used in an emergency. I have seen them on sale in some AAA offices, and there are numerous online ads. Here is one (although, as I said, I'm rather skeptical, particularly of the claim that it can be used to break a window for escape): http://policelink.monster.com/products/products/113-life-hammer-escap...
>>> "Pneuma" <frank.sp...@gmail.com> wrote in message >>> news:hct3b3$8qe$1@news.eternal-september.org... >>>> On Wed, 04 Nov 2009 23:02:42 GMT, "JonesieCat" >>>> <jonesiecac...@yahoo.com> >>>> wrote:
>>>>>Can someone tell me about the dynamics of opening car doors >>>>>underwater?
>>>> You have to roll down the window to let in the water to equalize the >>>> pressure or the door will never open.
>>>> Pneuma >>>> -- >>>> Read the United States National Health Insurance Act >>>> outline @ http://www.cprights.org/plan.php?plan=8 >>>> Total Estimated Cost: $1.8 Trillion/year
>>> There is a device that is advertised for helping a person break out of a >>> car. Supposedly, it is strong enough to break a car window (I've always >>> been a bit dubious), and it also has a blade for cutting seat belts. >>> Most people don't carry them in the car, of course, but I wonder if they >>> really are functional. Anyone know?
>>> MaryL
>> Yeah, I think it's called a tire iron and a box cutter. ;)
>> I don't know about a blade for cutting a seat belt; if you're >> that trapped, or the car is that crushed, can you even get >> out?
>> My SUV has two handy sun roofs that would work just >> great as escape hatches, with controls way up at the top. >> The car's designed to plow through fairly-deep water, and >> then even float....so I've got it all planned out. Just in >> case a sudden lake appears in the desert and I'm right >> there at the time, and drive into it.
>> Note that the electric car windows *will* work underwater >> for awhile, once the pressure is equalized.
>> Kris
> It's actually a tool that seriously is sold for that purpose. It is > supposed to be mounted close to the driver so it can quickly be located > and used in an emergency. I have seen them on sale in some AAA offices, > and there are numerous online ads. Here is one (although, as I said, I'm > rather skeptical, particularly of the claim that it can be used to break a > window for escape): > http://policelink.monster.com/products/products/113-life-hammer-escap...
> MaryL
The problem with all the tools is that they'll fly around the car (and maybe kill you) while you're mid-wreck), be hard to find once you're starting to submerge, and might not work unless you've practiced (which your insurance company won't much appreciate).
Being calm....and waiting for the pressure to equalize (hopefully, your car ends up butt-down so you can open the rear window while you've got airspace up front) is what the mythbusters liked best. But who'd calm.
Just don't go stargazing on private property down strange dark roads in the middle of the night.
>>> Can someone tell me about the dynamics of opening car doors >>> underwater?
>> You have to roll down the window to let in the water to equalize the >> pressure or the door will never open.
>> Pneuma >> -- >> Read the United States National Health Insurance Act >> outline @ http://www.cprights.org/plan.php?plan=8 >> Total Estimated Cost: $1.8 Trillion/year
> There is a device that is advertised for helping a person break out of a > car. Supposedly, it is strong enough to break a car window (I've always > been a bit dubious), and it also has a blade for cutting seat belts. > Most people don't carry them in the car, of course, but I wonder if they > really are functional. Anyone know?
You don't need a device, you just need to keep your head. Wait until the car is nearly full of water. Take a deep breath of the last air available -- once the air is gone, the doors and/or windows will open easily unless blocked by something.
> >>>>Can someone tell me about the dynamics of opening car doors > >>>>underwater?
> >>> You have to roll down the window to let in the water to equalize the > >>> pressure or the door will never open.
> >>> Pneuma > >>> -- > >>> Read the United States National Health Insurance Act > >>> outline @ http://www.cprights.org/plan.php?plan=8 > >>> Total Estimated Cost: $1.8 Trillion/year
> >> There is a device that is advertised for helping a person break out of a > >> car. Supposedly, it is strong enough to break a car window (I've always > >> been a bit dubious), and it also has a blade for cutting seat belts. > >> Most people don't carry them in the car, of course, but I wonder if they > >> really are functional. Anyone know?
> >> MaryL
> > Yeah, I think it's called a tire iron and a box cutter. ;)
> > I don't know about a blade for cutting a seat belt; if you're > > that trapped, or the car is that crushed, can you even get > > out?
> > My SUV has two handy sun roofs that would work just > > great as escape hatches, with controls way up at the top. > > The car's designed to plow through fairly-deep water, and > > then even float....so I've got it all planned out. Just in > > case a sudden lake appears in the desert and I'm right > > there at the time, and drive into it.
> > Note that the electric car windows *will* work underwater > > for awhile, once the pressure is equalized.
> > Kris
> It's actually a tool that seriously is sold for that purpose. It is > supposed to be mounted close to the driver so it can quickly be located and > used in an emergency. I have seen them on sale in some AAA offices, and > there are numerous online ads. Here is one (although, as I said, I'm rather > skeptical, particularly of the claim that it can be used to break a window > for escape): > http://policelink.monster.com/products/products/113-life-hammer-escap...
> MaryL
I knew there was a reason that I don't like electric windows. I wonder, if you had the money to buy a new car, if you could pay extra to get the manual ones?
>>>>>> Can someone tell me about the dynamics of opening car doors >>>>>> underwater? >>>>> You have to roll down the window to let in the water to equalize the >>>>> pressure or the door will never open.
>>>>> Pneuma >>>>> -- >>>>> Read the United States National Health Insurance Act >>>>> outline @ http://www.cprights.org/plan.php?plan=8 >>>>> Total Estimated Cost: $1.8 Trillion/year >>>> There is a device that is advertised for helping a person break out of a >>>> car. Supposedly, it is strong enough to break a car window (I've always >>>> been a bit dubious), and it also has a blade for cutting seat belts. >>>> Most people don't carry them in the car, of course, but I wonder if they >>>> really are functional. Anyone know?
>>>> MaryL
>>> Yeah, I think it's called a tire iron and a box cutter. ;)
>>> I don't know about a blade for cutting a seat belt; if you're >>> that trapped, or the car is that crushed, can you even get >>> out?
>>> My SUV has two handy sun roofs that would work just >>> great as escape hatches, with controls way up at the top. >>> The car's designed to plow through fairly-deep water, and >>> then even float....so I've got it all planned out. Just in >>> case a sudden lake appears in the desert and I'm right >>> there at the time, and drive into it.
>>> Note that the electric car windows *will* work underwater >>> for awhile, once the pressure is equalized.
>>> Kris >> It's actually a tool that seriously is sold for that purpose. It is >> supposed to be mounted close to the driver so it can quickly be located and >> used in an emergency. I have seen them on sale in some AAA offices, and >> there are numerous online ads. Here is one (although, as I said, I'm rather >> skeptical, particularly of the claim that it can be used to break a window >> for escape): >> http://policelink.monster.com/products/products/113-life-hammer-escap...
>> MaryL
> I knew there was a reason that I don't like electric windows. I wonder, > if you had the money to buy a new car, if you could pay extra to get the > manual ones?
Fresh water isn't going to short out your car's electrical systems. Salt water might.
> I knew there was a reason that I don't like electric windows. I wonder, > if you had the money to buy a new car, if you could pay extra to get the > manual ones?
I know what you mean. It's the first time I started thinking that manual is better. Electric ones should at least have an emergency latch or something.
I think once you know you're in water, you can open the windows and get out. I'm assuming their car lights still worked and they called people and mentioned water, so they did have some time before they sunk. It would be extremely easy to panic in that situation though.
Windows are really hard to break from the inside. If you have a bat and you're standing outside, no problem, but sitting down without having the leg strength from standing or without a bat, would make it pretty hard, even for these 3 who all seemed physically strong.
It's a shame. I think if they were 100 percent sober, they must have panicked and weren't able to think through what was happening. I'm wondering why they called friends and not 911 first.
> > I knew there was a reason that I don't like electric windows. I wonder, > > if you had the money to buy a new car, if you could pay extra to get the > > manual ones?
> Fresh water isn't going to short out your car's electrical systems. > Salt water might.
>> I knew there was a reason that I don't like electric windows. I wonder, >> if you had the money to buy a new car, if you could pay extra to get the >> manual ones?
> I know what you mean. It's the first time I started thinking that > manual is better. Electric ones should at least have an emergency > latch or something.
> I think once you know you're in water, you can open the windows and > get out. I'm assuming their car lights still worked and they called > people and mentioned water, so they did have some time before they > sunk. It would be extremely easy to panic in that situation though.
> Windows are really hard to break from the inside. If you have a bat > and you're standing outside, no problem, but sitting down without > having the leg strength from standing or without a bat, would make it > pretty hard, even for these 3 who all seemed physically strong.
> It's a shame. I think if they were 100 percent sober, they must have > panicked and weren't able to think through what was happening. I'm > wondering why they called friends and not 911 first.
They just didn't think it might be life threatening, seems to me? Bet you're right about trying to kick out windows, espec if they had on sneakers too. Mygawd. Be a horrible way to go, if not knocked unconscious.
> > I knew there was a reason that I don't like electric windows. I wonder, > > if you had the money to buy a new car, if you could pay extra to get the > > manual ones?
> I know what you mean. It's the first time I started thinking that > manual is better. Electric ones should at least have an emergency > latch or something.
> I think once you know you're in water, you can open the windows and > get out. I'm assuming their car lights still worked and they called > people and mentioned water, so they did have some time before they > sunk. It would be extremely easy to panic in that situation though.
> Windows are really hard to break from the inside. If you have a bat > and you're standing outside, no problem, but sitting down without > having the leg strength from standing or without a bat, would make it > pretty hard, even for these 3 who all seemed physically strong.
> It's a shame. I think if they were 100 percent sober, they must have > panicked and weren't able to think through what was happening. I'm > wondering why they called friends and not 911 first.
Speed dial? I dunno, I don't have a cell phone. Maybe it being in the dark there, in the muddy water, made it really hard to think.
realpch wrote: > Michael Snyder wrote: >> realpch wrote:
> <snip>
>>> I knew there was a reason that I don't like electric windows. I wonder, >>> if you had the money to buy a new car, if you could pay extra to get the >>> manual ones? >> Fresh water isn't going to short out your car's electrical systems. >> Salt water might.
>> > I knew there was a reason that I don't like electric windows. I wonder, >> > if you had the money to buy a new car, if you could pay extra to get >> > the >> > manual ones?
>> I know what you mean. It's the first time I started thinking that >> manual is better. Electric ones should at least have an emergency >> latch or something.
>> I think once you know you're in water, you can open the windows and >> get out. I'm assuming their car lights still worked and they called >> people and mentioned water, so they did have some time before they >> sunk. It would be extremely easy to panic in that situation though.
>> Windows are really hard to break from the inside. If you have a bat >> and you're standing outside, no problem, but sitting down without >> having the leg strength from standing or without a bat, would make it >> pretty hard, even for these 3 who all seemed physically strong.
>> It's a shame. I think if they were 100 percent sober, they must have >> panicked and weren't able to think through what was happening. I'm >> wondering why they called friends and not 911 first.
> Speed dial? I dunno, I don't have a cell phone. Maybe it being in the > dark there, in the muddy water, made it really hard to think.
> >>>>Can someone tell me about the dynamics of opening car doors > >>>>underwater?
> >>> You have to roll down the window to let in the water to equalize the > >>> pressure or the door will never open.
> >>> Pneuma > >>> -- > >>> Read the United States National Health Insurance Act > >>> outline @http://www.cprights.org/plan.php?plan=8 > >>> Total Estimated Cost: $1.8 Trillion/year
> >> There is a device that is advertised for helping a person break out of a > >> car. Supposedly, it is strong enough to break a car window (I've always > >> been a bit dubious), and it also has a blade for cutting seat belts. > >> Most people don't carry them in the car, of course, but I wonder if they > >> really are functional. Anyone know?
> >> MaryL
> > Yeah, I think it's called a tire iron and a box cutter. ;)
> > I don't know about a blade for cutting a seat belt; if you're > > that trapped, or the car is that crushed, can you even get > > out?
> > My SUV has two handy sun roofs that would work just > > great as escape hatches, with controls way up at the top. > > The car's designed to plow through fairly-deep water, and > > then even float....so I've got it all planned out. Just in > > case a sudden lake appears in the desert and I'm right > > there at the time, and drive into it.
> > Note that the electric car windows *will* work underwater > > for awhile, once the pressure is equalized.
> > Kris
> It's actually a tool that seriously is sold for that purpose. It is > supposed to be mounted close to the driver so it can quickly be located and > used in an emergency. I have seen them on sale in some AAA offices, and > there are numerous online ads. Here is one (although, as I said, I'm rather > skeptical, particularly of the claim that it can be used to break a window > for escape):http://policelink.monster.com/products/products/113-life-hammer-escap...
> MaryL- Hide quoted text -
> - Show quoted text -
Does it glow in the dark... like the emergency release latches inside trunks? I also wonder if the airbags inflated... another problem that could have caused even more panic.
>> > I knew there was a reason that I don't like electric windows. I wonder, >> > if you had the money to buy a new car, if you could pay extra to get >> > the >> > manual ones?
>> Fresh water isn't going to short out your car's electrical systems. >> Salt water might.
> So why wouldn't fresh water short them out?
> Peach
It will....but it takes longer for them to short out, than for you to drown. No problem.
> On Nov 4, 3:30 pm, SoCally <foaa...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > I can't imagine that alcohol wasn't involved since they could have > > gotten out of the car in time with such a small amount of water.
> > One negative aspect of automatic windows is that if the car is off, > > you can't get the windows down. Still they "should" have had enough > > time to escape by the door.
> There's several things I can't figure out.
> They called their friends, and asked for help (rather than > calling 911). They went out "stargazing" frequently. They > were three ultra-strong women (sports stars at the college), > who should have been able to escape.
> I'm sure toxicology will turn up something. You don't > have to go out onto a dirty road near Dickinson, ND to > "stargaze". There's not a lot of light pollution out in > those rural areas. (But you might go out there, if you want > privacy for something else.)
Yeah, my thoughts exactly. 50 bux say they were lip licking.
The "stargazing" shit was a pis poor attempt at covering it up.
On Nov 4, 5:30 pm, SoCally <foaa...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I can't imagine that alcohol wasn't involved since they could have > gotten out of the car in time with such a small amount of water.
> One negative aspect of automatic windows is that if the car is off, > you can't get the windows down. Still they "should" have had enough > time to escape by the door.
Best thing in sinking car is leave windows up, let the water slowly come in (it will), let the pressure equalize, then open the door and surface.
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