This is only the first half of the story at link. I can't decide if I agree with Kris, that the guy was just nutty, or with Comj, who said the guy was just a cowardly ay aitch (ahem, paraphrasing here). Maybe both? jc --- Fort Hood Investigators Focus on Motive
Nicole Bengiveno/The New York Times The American flag flew at half-staff at Fort Hood on Friday morning.
By CLIFFORD KRAUSS and JACK HEALY Published: November 6, 2009 KILLEEN, Tex. - Amid a public outpouring of grief on Friday for those gunned down at the Fort Hood Army base, new details emerged about the chaotic moments of the shooting and the Army psychiatrist suspected of opening fire on dozens of his fellow soldiers.
Emergency personnel removed a wounded person from Fort Hood after a rampage left 13 dead and 28 wounded. The gunman, identified as Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan, 39, was shot four times by a Fort Hood civilian police officer responding to the scene. He remained hospitalized on a ventilator on Friday in stable condition and was expected to live, Army officials said.
The death toll rose to 13 people, including 12 soldiers, in what is thought to have been the most lethal shooting on an American military base in history. Another 27 people were still hospitalized on Friday afternoon, all in stable condition.
Gen. George W. Casey Jr., the Army chief of staff, and John M. McHugh, the Army secretary, traveled to Fort Hood as a widespread investigation into the shooting began, and promised to provide whatever resources the staff at the base might need. The Army is already sending chaplains and mental-health counselors.
But General Casey acknowledged that the wounds from the shooting would not heal quickly.
"This is a tough one," he said in a news conference at the base. "It is inside. And it's a kick in the gut. There's no doubt about that."
As military and law-enforcement investigators waited to interview Major Hasan, a contradictory portrait of him emerged. Neighbors described him as a man who dressed alternately in a military uniform and flowing white robes, and who gave a copy of the Koran to his next-door neighbor a day before the shooting.
Reports from the shooting suggested that soldiers may have heard him shout something like "Allahu Akbar" - Arabic for "God is great!" - just before he fired two automatic handguns. He was shown on a security video tape from a local convenience store wearing white robes just hours before the shooting. And family members said that he had complained about being harassed expressly because he was a Muslim, and that he had expressed deep concerns about deploying.
Acquaintances said Major Hasan was upset about his future deployment in a war zone, and heatedly opposed United States foreign policy in discussions with fellow soldiers. Earlier this year law-enforcement officers monitoring Islamic Web sites identified a man of the same name as a blogger who posted comments on suicide bombings in which he equated such acts to those by soldiers who use their own bodies to shield fellow soldiers from exploding shrapnel.
But Major Hasan also reportedly required counseling at different times in his life, including for a time as a medical student before United States involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan were issues.
Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison, Republican of Texas, said Army officials were trying to determine "if there is something more than just one deranged person involved here." She said in remarks at the base on Friday that while he was the only one who had fired at the other soldiers, it was still unclear if he had planned this completely alone.
"That is a question still to be asked," she said. "That is not a question that has been resolved."
Senator Hutchison said the shooting had prompted Army officials to examine procedures in tracking people who may have problems.
"Was enough done?" she asked. "Should there have been more triggers? I think that's what we're trying to learn right now. And I think that it's a legitimate question and it's a question the Army is asking itself."
"I don't think that anyone would have ever expected a psychiatrist trained to help others mental health would be the one who would go off himself, unless there's more to it, and that's what they're looking for," she added.
President Obama asked people to avoid "jumping to conclusions" while the investigations continued.
Army officials said Friday morning that Major Hasan had not caused any problems since transferring to the Darnall Army Medical Center at Fort Hood this year. Col. John Rossi, an Army spokesman, told reporters that investigators were examining whether Major Hasan had registered the two handguns used in the shooting.
Major Hasan is the sole suspect, after three others who were immediately taken in custody were released.
> This is only the first half of the story at link. I can't decide if I > agree with Kris, that the guy was just nutty, or with Comj, who said the > guy was just a cowardly ay aitch (ahem, paraphrasing here). Maybe both? > jc > ---
You can be influenced by religion, be opportunistic enough to try to get the military to set you up with a career....but in the end, you have to be totally nuts to do what he did.
> In article <rT2Jm.52736$ze1.46...@news-server.bigpond.net.au>, > "JonesieCat" <jonesiecac...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> This is only the first half of the story at link. I can't decide if I >> agree >> with Kris, that the guy was just nutty, or with Comj, who said the guy >> was >> just a cowardly ay aitch (ahem, paraphrasing here). Maybe both? >> jc >> ---
> He wasn't nutty, and it will be laughable if his defense presented > some sort of diminished capacity defense. If his defense team presents > a diminished capacity defense, I recommend they call him to the stand as > an expert witness.
> I am more putting him into the mold of a spree killer.
> Anyway he is going to get his death wish sooner than later with a > court martial and the US Military Code of justice.
I think he'll get his death wish when they pull the plug on his life support.
> This is only the first half of the story at link. I can't decide if I > agree with Kris, that the guy was just nutty, or with Comj, who said the > guy was just a cowardly ay aitch (ahem, paraphrasing here). Maybe both? > jc > ---
I don't think he was *nutty*. I think he has a similar ideology as a suicide bomber.
>>> This is only the first half of the story at link. I can't decide if I >>> agree >>> with Kris, that the guy was just nutty, or with Comj, who said the guy >>> was >>> just a cowardly ay aitch (ahem, paraphrasing here). Maybe both? >>> jc >>> ---
>> He wasn't nutty, and it will be laughable if his defense presented >> some sort of diminished capacity defense. If his defense team presents >> a diminished capacity defense, I recommend they call him to the stand as >> an expert witness.
>> I am more putting him into the mold of a spree killer.
>> Anyway he is going to get his death wish sooner than later with a >> court martial and the US Military Code of justice.
> I think he'll get his death wish when they pull the plug on > his life support.
> Kris
You mean now? He's on life support? I thought he was stable/fair?
> > >>> This is only the first half of the story at link. I can't decide if I > > >>> agree > > >>> with Kris, that the guy was just nutty, or with Comj, who said the guy > > >>> was > > >>> just a cowardly ay aitch (ahem, paraphrasing here). Maybe both? > > >>> jc > > >>> ---
> > >> He wasn't nutty, and it will be laughable if his defense presented > > >> some sort of diminished capacity defense. If his defense team presents > > >> a diminished capacity defense, I recommend they call him to the stand as > > >> an expert witness.
> > >> I am more putting him into the mold of a spree killer.
> > >> Anyway he is going to get his death wish sooner than later with a > > >> court martial and the US Military Code of justice.
> > > I think he'll get his death wish when they pull the plug on > > > his life support.
> > > Kris
> > You mean now? He's on life support? I thought he was stable/fair?
> Ditto.
> He was shot numerous times, and cops don't abide by the Hague > convention with their hollow point bullets. He allegedly had a 5.7mm FN > handgun, which is a very nasty cartridge..
He was shot 4 times. I've read that he's on a ventilator, but I've also read that he's stable and expected to survive. Last I read he had been transferred to the military hospital in San Antonio.
> The police officer who shot Hasan in the torso, got two of these > bullets, and it may had hit her femoral artery, given she got a > tourniquet on her leg.
>> > >>> This is only the first half of the story at link. I can't decide if >> > >>> I >> > >>> agree >> > >>> with Kris, that the guy was just nutty, or with Comj, who said the >> > >>> guy >> > >>> was >> > >>> just a cowardly ay aitch (ahem, paraphrasing here). Maybe both? >> > >>> jc >> > >>> ---
>> > >> He wasn't nutty, and it will be laughable if his defense presented >> > >> some sort of diminished capacity defense. If his defense team >> > >> presents >> > >> a diminished capacity defense, I recommend they call him to the >> > >> stand as >> > >> an expert witness.
>> > >> I am more putting him into the mold of a spree killer.
>> > >> Anyway he is going to get his death wish sooner than later with a >> > >> court martial and the US Military Code of justice.
>> > > I think he'll get his death wish when they pull the plug on >> > > his life support.
>> > > Kris
>> > You mean now? He's on life support? I thought he was stable/fair?
>> Ditto.
>> He was shot numerous times, and cops don't abide by the Hague >> convention with their hollow point bullets. He allegedly had a 5.7mm FN >> handgun, which is a very nasty cartridge..
> He was shot 4 times. I've read that he's on a ventilator, but I've > also read > that he's stable and expected to survive. Last I read he had been > transferred > to the military hospital in San Antonio.
>> The police officer who shot Hasan in the torso, got two of these >> bullets, and it may had hit her femoral artery, given she got a >> tourniquet on her leg.
>>> > >>> This is only the first half of the story at link. I can't decide >>> > >>> if I >>> > >>> agree >>> > >>> with Kris, that the guy was just nutty, or with Comj, who said the >>> > >>> guy >>> > >>> was >>> > >>> just a cowardly ay aitch (ahem, paraphrasing here). Maybe both? >>> > >>> jc >>> > >>> ---
>>> > >> He wasn't nutty, and it will be laughable if his defense >>> > >> presented >>> > >> some sort of diminished capacity defense. If his defense team >>> > >> presents >>> > >> a diminished capacity defense, I recommend they call him to the >>> > >> stand as >>> > >> an expert witness.
>>> > >> I am more putting him into the mold of a spree killer.
>>> > >> Anyway he is going to get his death wish sooner than later with a >>> > >> court martial and the US Military Code of justice.
>>> > > I think he'll get his death wish when they pull the plug on >>> > > his life support.
>>> > > Kris
>>> > You mean now? He's on life support? I thought he was stable/fair?
>>> Ditto.
>>> He was shot numerous times, and cops don't abide by the Hague >>> convention with their hollow point bullets. He allegedly had a 5.7mm FN >>> handgun, which is a very nasty cartridge..
>> He was shot 4 times. I've read that he's on a ventilator, but I've >> also read >> that he's stable and expected to survive. Last I read he had been >> transferred >> to the military hospital in San Antonio.
>>> The police officer who shot Hasan in the torso, got two of these >>> bullets, and it may had hit her femoral artery, given she got a >>> tourniquet on her leg.
>> The officer was shot in both thighs and a wrist.
> Just because someone is on a ventilator doesn't mean it's a last ditch > thing... But it could be. Somebody toying with us?
> jc
They're going to do all they can to save his life.....just to get him to talk, in case there's some way this piece of crap is connected to an organized group. Supposedly, he's paralyzed; sounds like he took a shot to the head or spinal area.
> "JonesieCat" <jonesiecac...@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:rT2Jm.52736$ze1.46582@news-server.bigpond.net.au... >> This is only the first half of the story at link. I can't decide if I >> agree with Kris, that the guy was just nutty, or with Comj, who said the >> guy was just a cowardly ay aitch (ahem, paraphrasing here). Maybe both? >> jc >> ---
> I don't think he was *nutty*. I think he has a similar ideology as a > suicide bomber.
> bella
This is probably the only time I'm gonna agree with td.
> On Nov 7, 12:21 am, "Chocolic" <chatter...@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote:
> > "bella" <tinydancer...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> [snip]
> > > I don't think he was *nutty*. I think he has a similar ideology as a > > > suicide bomber.
> > > bella
> > This is probably the only time I'm gonna agree with td.
> I disagree.
> If he did it out of ideology, then he did such an ineffective job that > one would still question his sanity.
> This was a major in the US Army. He wasn't some impoverished bedouin > sneaking past an Israeli checkpoint.
> I don't want to diminish the pain and suffering he caused, but he > could have done a whole lot worse with a little bit of thought and > planning.
> Mick
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This is one of the more sensible threads about this episode. Psychiatric counselors and therapists can develop mental illness from the stress of being an emotional dumping ground week in week out and month after month of listening to tortured souls. For one think Nidal Hasan did not have a substantial social network to buffer the stresses of his job. In fact he was a loner and apparently without immediate family or friends. The landlord saw only one visitor to Nidal's apartment and this individual came only on the day before the shooting spree. He may have been a fellow Islamist student or cleric.
All religions provide ways to escape mental torment. In this case, Islam recommends that you commit to jihad (killing of non-believers) and thus gain entry to paradise and surcease (eternal peace).
> > On Nov 7, 12:21 am, "Chocolic" <chatter...@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > "bella" <tinydancer...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > [snip]
> > > > I don't think he was *nutty*. I think he has a similar ideology as a > > > > suicide bomber.
> > > > bella
> > > This is probably the only time I'm gonna agree with td.
> > I disagree.
> > If he did it out of ideology, then he did such an ineffective job that > > one would still question his sanity.
> > This was a major in the US Army. He wasn't some impoverished bedouin > > sneaking past an Israeli checkpoint.
> > I don't want to diminish the pain and suffering he caused, but he > > could have done a whole lot worse with a little bit of thought and > > planning.
> > Mick
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> This is one of the more sensible threads about this episode. > Psychiatric counselors and therapists can develop mental illness > from the stress of being an emotional dumping ground week in > week out and month after month of listening to tortured souls. > For one think Nidal Hasan did not have a substantial social > network to buffer the stresses of his job. In fact he was a loner > and apparently without immediate family or friends. The landlord > saw only one visitor to Nidal's apartment and this individual came > only on the day before the shooting spree. He may have been a > fellow Islamist student or cleric.
> All religions provide ways to escape mental torment. In this case, > Islam recommends that you commit to jihad (killing of non-believers) > and thus gain entry to paradise and surcease (eternal peace).
Well, I there are some moslems that find justification for that in their scriptures. I think it's probably simlar to Christians who believe that the Bible compels them to take signs to soldiers' funerals that say "It's good your son died, because God hates fags."
Hasan was of Palestinian origin, but he was U.S. born and raised.
>> "JonesieCat" <jonesiecac...@yahoo.com> wrote in message >> news:rT2Jm.52736$ze1.46582@news-server.bigpond.net.au... >>> This is only the first half of the story at link. I can't decide if I >>> agree with Kris, that the guy was just nutty, or with Comj, who said the >>> guy was just a cowardly ay aitch (ahem, paraphrasing here). Maybe both? >>> jc >>> ---
>> I don't think he was *nutty*. I think he has a similar ideology as a >> suicide bomber.
>> bella
> This is probably the only time I'm gonna agree with td.
> Chocolic
I think earthage was similarly inclined, or thought about it anyway. I'm not sure myself.
>>> "JonesieCat" <jonesiecac...@yahoo.com> wrote in message >>> news:rT2Jm.52736$ze1.46582@news-server.bigpond.net.au... >>>> This is only the first half of the story at link. I can't decide if I >>>> agree with Kris, that the guy was just nutty, or with Comj, who said >>>> the guy was just a cowardly ay aitch (ahem, paraphrasing here). Maybe >>>> both? >>>> jc >>>> ---
>>> I don't think he was *nutty*. I think he has a similar ideology as a >>> suicide bomber.
>>> bella
>> This is probably the only time I'm gonna agree with td.
>> Chocolic
> I think earthage was similarly inclined, or thought about it anyway. I'm > not sure myself.
> jc
If you believe that this is ideological, shouldn't *any* person who commits an act of terrorism or mass killing with a religious connection, have the same tag applied to their crime?
What about Timothy McVeigh? He hung out with the charismatic Christians at Elohim City, and one of the Elohim faithful was with him when he purchsed weapons at the gun show.
But we don't tag him with ideological murder. Do we only do that to people whose religion we don't respect or we fear?
> >>> "JonesieCat" <jonesiecac...@yahoo.com> wrote in message > >>>news:rT2Jm.52736$ze1.46582@news-server.bigpond.net.au... > >>>> This is only the first half of the story at link. I can't decide if I > >>>> agree with Kris, that the guy was just nutty, or with Comj, who said > >>>> the guy was just a cowardly ay aitch (ahem, paraphrasing here). Maybe > >>>> both? > >>>> jc > >>>> ---
> >>> I don't think he was *nutty*. I think he has a similar ideology as a > >>> suicide bomber.
> >>> bella
> >> This is probably the only time I'm gonna agree with td.
> >> Chocolic
> > I think earthage was similarly inclined, or thought about it anyway. I'm > > not sure myself.
> > jc
> If you believe that this is ideological, shouldn't *any* > person who commits an act of terrorism or mass killing > with a religious connection, have the same tag applied > to their crime?
> What about Timothy McVeigh? He hung out with the charismatic > Christians at Elohim City, and one of the Elohim faithful was > with him when he purchsed weapons at the gun show.
> But we don't tag him with ideological murder. Do we only do > that to people whose religion we don't respect or we fear?
We have a right-wing mainstream media and the extremes of it, Rush Limbaugh, Mike Savage, Ann Coulter, etc. are best described as "fascist."
If McVeigh had espoused an ideology that was not far-right/Christian, we would hear - all day, every day - about how liberals killed those people in Oklahoma.
There are plenty of excellent (IMO) reasons to criticise some left- wing agendas, but the fascists have deliberately chosen to attack "liberals" rather than "left wing."
Why?
There are a number of clear reasons extremists attack all things liberal. "Preserving your liberty" is given lip service.
Liberty is, IMO, so far down the right-wing wish list, that it really has fallen off as anything other than a rhetorical ploy.
"As Mankind becomes more liberal, they will be more apt to allow that all those who conduct themselves as worthy members of the community are equally entitled to the protections of civil government. I hope ever to see America among the foremost nations of justice and liberality." -George Washington
Limbaugh verbally associates liberals with Stalin. Stalin, like George Washington, was a revolutionary. Stalin was not a liberal. Washington was a liberal.
> In article > <9a10bd48-034e-4469-8f54-018e15158...@g7g2000vbi.googlegroups.com>, > M <m...@pitt.edu> wrote:
>> On Nov 7, 12:21 am, "Chocolic" <chatter...@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote: >> > "bella" <tinydancer...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> [snip]
>> > > I don't think he was *nutty*. I think he has a similar ideology as a >> > > suicide bomber.
>> > > bella
>> > This is probably the only time I'm gonna agree with td.
>> I disagree.
>> If he did it out of ideology, then he did such an ineffective job that >> one would still question his sanity.
>> This was a major in the US Army. He wasn't some impoverished bedouin >> sneaking past an Israeli checkpoint.
> Screw the rank. Look at his personal life, he was lonely, had few or > no friends, and seemed frustrated and depress. I think the planning > was to either kill himself alone in his apartment, or go out in glory, > and take some people with him.
> He planned this well enough that he knew he could kill numerous people > in a confine area.
> Using an explanation like Islam is to cover his failures. He could > also an explanation like Arab nationalism as well.
> Even these explanations are pathetic. He is a medical doctor. Where > ever he was deployed, he treats all.
> He wasn't psychotic, he made a cognitive choice. The problem for him > was that he was captured alive. He was planning to use his last bullet > on himself.
I think he was hoping someone else would kill him.
“When a white guy shoots up a post office, they call that going postal,” said Victor Benjamin II, 30, a former member of the Army. “But when a Muslim does it, they call it jihad.
comadrejo wrote: > In article > <9a10bd48-034e-4469-8f54-018e15158...@g7g2000vbi.googlegroups.com>, > M <m...@pitt.edu> wrote:
>> On Nov 7, 12:21 am, "Chocolic" <chatter...@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote: >>> "bella" <tinydancer...@hotmail.com> wrote in message >> [snip]
>>>> I don't think he was *nutty*. I think he has a similar ideology as a >>>> suicide bomber. >>>> bella >>> This is probably the only time I'm gonna agree with td.
>> I disagree.
>> If he did it out of ideology, then he did such an ineffective job that >> one would still question his sanity.
>> This was a major in the US Army. He wasn't some impoverished bedouin >> sneaking past an Israeli checkpoint.
> Screw the rank. Look at his personal life, he was lonely, had few or > no friends, and seemed frustrated and depress. I think the planning > was to either kill himself alone in his apartment, or go out in glory, > and take some people with him.
> He planned this well enough that he knew he could kill numerous people > in a confine area.
> Using an explanation like Islam is to cover his failures. He could > also an explanation like Arab nationalism as well.
> Even these explanations are pathetic. He is a medical doctor. Where > ever he was deployed, he treats all.
> He wasn't psychotic, he made a cognitive choice. The problem for him > was that he was captured alive. He was planning to use his last bullet > on himself.
Regardless of any life accomplishments, he couldn't even pull off "suicide by 'cop'" correctly, or just put the damn gun in his mouth and go for it. Cowardly loser. Also, if had such strong beliefs against war, why go into the military to begin with.
> comadrejo wrote: > > In article > > <9a10bd48-034e-4469-8f54-018e15158...@g7g2000vbi.googlegroups.com>, > > M <m...@pitt.edu> wrote:
> >> On Nov 7, 12:21 am, "Chocolic" <chatter...@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote: > >>> "bella" <tinydancer...@hotmail.com> wrote in message > >> [snip]
> >>>> I don't think he was *nutty*. I think he has a similar ideology as a > >>>> suicide bomber. > >>>> bella > >>> This is probably the only time I'm gonna agree with td.
> >> I disagree.
> >> If he did it out of ideology, then he did such an ineffective job that > >> one would still question his sanity.
> >> This was a major in the US Army. He wasn't some impoverished bedouin > >> sneaking past an Israeli checkpoint.
> > Screw the rank. Look at his personal life, he was lonely, had few or > > no friends, and seemed frustrated and depress. I think the planning > > was to either kill himself alone in his apartment, or go out in glory, > > and take some people with him.
> > He planned this well enough that he knew he could kill numerous people > > in a confine area.
> > Using an explanation like Islam is to cover his failures. He could > > also an explanation like Arab nationalism as well.
> > Even these explanations are pathetic. He is a medical doctor. Where > > ever he was deployed, he treats all.
> > He wasn't psychotic, he made a cognitive choice. The problem for him > > was that he was captured alive. He was planning to use his last bullet > > on himself.
> Regardless of any life accomplishments, he couldn't even pull off > "suicide by 'cop'" correctly, or just put the damn gun in his mouth and > go for it. Cowardly loser. Also, if had such strong beliefs against war, > why go into the military to begin with.-
Interesting question. I don't have a clear time line of this guys life, most real information I have is from Comadrejoa's link
[BTW, although I disagree with you on the interpretatioin of the informatioin, Comadrejoa, the link was much appreciated]
No reports from HS. Loner? Girlfriend? Visible Moslem? Devote Moslem? Good student? Dunno.
He joined the Army in the late 80's (i.e. before the Berlin Wall fell). He spent 8 eyars as an enlisted man. No info as to performance, final rank, whether he was visible as a Moslem, etc.
He left the Army and got an honors degree in Biochem from Virginia Tech. No reports of his life at VT. Good student.
He went to medical school at USUSH and graduated in 2003. As a civilian veteran? I don't know. Same questions as before, unanswered.
Some news story mentioned that he re-joined the army after 9/11. (too lazy to search out link) If that report is accurate he would have been halfway through med school by them, if my dates are right.
> In article <rT2Jm.52736$ze1.46...@news-server.bigpond.net.au>,
> "JonesieCat" <jonesiecac...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > This is only the first half of the story at link. I can't decide if I agree > > with Kris, that the guy was just nutty, or with Comj, who said the guy was > > just a cowardly ay aitch (ahem, paraphrasing here). Maybe both? > > jc > > ---
> He wasn't nutty, and it will be laughable if his defense presented > some sort of diminished capacity defense. If his defense team presents > a diminished capacity defense, I recommend they call him to the stand as > an expert witness.
> I am more putting him into the mold of a spree killer.
> Anyway he is going to get his death wish sooner than later with a > court martial and the US Military Code of justice.
> > Fort Hood Investigators Focus on Motive
> > Nicole Bengiveno/The New York Times > > The American flag flew at half-staff at Fort Hood on Friday morning.
> > By CLIFFORD KRAUSS and JACK HEALY > > Published: November 6, 2009 > > KILLEEN, Tex. - Amid a public outpouring of grief on Friday for those gunned > > down at the Fort Hood Army base, new details emerged about the chaotic > > moments of the shooting and the Army psychiatrist suspected of opening fire > > on dozens of his fellow soldiers.
> > Emergency personnel removed a wounded person from Fort Hood after a rampage > > left 13 dead and 28 wounded. > > The gunman, identified as Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan, 39, was shot four times by > > a Fort Hood civilian police officer responding to the scene. He remained > > hospitalized on a ventilator on Friday in stable condition and was expected > > to live, Army officials said.
> > The death toll rose to 13 people, including 12 soldiers, in what is thought > > to have been the most lethal shooting on an American military base in > > history. Another 27 people were still hospitalized on Friday afternoon, all > > in stable condition.
> > Gen. George W. Casey Jr., the Army chief of staff, and John M. McHugh, the > > Army secretary, traveled to Fort Hood as a widespread investigation into the > > shooting began, and promised to provide whatever resources the staff at the > > base might need. The Army is already sending chaplains and mental-health > > counselors.
> > But General Casey acknowledged that the wounds from the shooting would not > > heal quickly.
> > "This is a tough one," he said in a news conference at the base. "It is > > inside. And it's a kick in the gut. There's no doubt about that."
> > As military and law-enforcement investigators waited to interview Major > > Hasan, a contradictory portrait of him emerged. Neighbors described him as a > > man who dressed alternately in a military uniform and flowing white robes, > > and who gave a copy of the Koran to his next-door neighbor a day before the > > shooting.
> > Reports from the shooting suggested that soldiers may have heard him shout > > something like "Allahu Akbar" - Arabic for "God is great!" - just before he > > fired two automatic handguns. He was shown on a security video tape from a > > local convenience store wearing white robes just hours before the shooting. > > And family members said that he had complained about being harassed > > expressly because he was a Muslim, and that he had expressed deep concerns > > about deploying.
> > Acquaintances said Major Hasan was upset about his future deployment in a > > war zone, and heatedly opposed United States foreign policy in discussions > > with fellow soldiers. Earlier this year law-enforcement officers monitoring > > Islamic Web sites identified a man of the same name as a blogger who posted > > comments on suicide bombings in which he equated such acts to those by > > soldiers who use their own bodies to shield fellow soldiers from exploding > > shrapnel.
> > But Major Hasan also reportedly required counseling at different times in > > his life, including for a time as a medical student before United States > > involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan were issues.
> > Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison, Republican of Texas, said Army officials were > > trying to determine "if there is something more than just one deranged > > person involved here." She said in remarks at the base on Friday that while > > he was the only one who had fired at the other soldiers, it was still > > unclear if he had planned this completely alone.
> > "That is a question still to be asked," she said. "That is not a question > > that has been resolved."
> > Senator Hutchison said the shooting had prompted Army officials to examine > > procedures in tracking people who may have problems.
> > "Was enough done?" she asked. "Should there have been more triggers? I think > > that's what we're trying to learn right now. And I think that it's a > > legitimate question and it's a question the Army is asking itself."
> > "I don't think that anyone would have ever expected a psychiatrist trained > > to help others mental health would be the one who would go off himself, > > unless there's more to it, and that's what they're looking for," she added.
> > President Obama asked people to avoid "jumping to conclusions" while the > > investigations continued.
> > Army officials said Friday morning that Major Hasan had not caused any > > problems since transferring to the Darnall Army Medical Center at Fort Hood > > this year. Col. John Rossi, an Army spokesman, told reporters that > > investigators were examining whether Major Hasan had registered the two > > handguns used in the shooting.
> > Major Hasan is the sole suspect, after three others who were immediately > > taken in custody were released.
He was an islamic homicide bomber no different from those in Iraq and Afghanistan who have killed our troops. When he yelled out Allah Akbar that gave him away. Once they dig even more we'll all find out the real truth of him being a fanatic. Good thing he wasn't a Christian because we'd never hear the end of it. That he was a muslim will eventually get swept under the rug. Newsweek and Time have already said it was because he was nuts. He wasn't. He was as lucid as you and I.
> comadrejo wrote: >> In article >> <9a10bd48-034e-4469-8f54-018e15158...@g7g2000vbi.googlegroups.com>, >> M <m...@pitt.edu> wrote:
>>> On Nov 7, 12:21 am, "Chocolic" <chatter...@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote: >>>> "bella" <tinydancer...@hotmail.com> wrote in message >>> [snip]
>>>>> I don't think he was *nutty*. I think he has a similar ideology as a >>>>> suicide bomber. >>>>> bella >>>> This is probably the only time I'm gonna agree with td.
>>> I disagree.
>>> If he did it out of ideology, then he did such an ineffective job that >>> one would still question his sanity.
>>> This was a major in the US Army. He wasn't some impoverished bedouin >>> sneaking past an Israeli checkpoint.
>> Screw the rank. Look at his personal life, he was lonely, had few or >> no friends, and seemed frustrated and depress. I think the planning was >> to either kill himself alone in his apartment, or go out in glory, and >> take some people with him. He planned this well enough that he knew he >> could kill numerous people in a confine area.
>> Using an explanation like Islam is to cover his failures. He could >> also an explanation like Arab nationalism as well.
>> Even these explanations are pathetic. He is a medical doctor. Where >> ever he was deployed, he treats all. He wasn't psychotic, he made a >> cognitive choice. The problem for him was that he was captured alive. >> He was planning to use his last bullet on himself.
> Regardless of any life accomplishments, he couldn't even pull off "suicide > by 'cop'" correctly, or just put the damn gun in his mouth and go for it. > Cowardly loser. Also, if had such strong beliefs against war, why go into > the military to begin with.
He wasn't anti-war; he was against killing people of his religion and background. And since he wasn't even a killer, I'm not sure what his point was. I believe he'd have been suicidal no matter what religion he was. He couldn't get a wife or a girlfriend. He didn't attend mosque until two months ago....probably about the time he got his overseas orders. He was living in a crappy apartment, driving an economy car....on an officer's pay.
His NONtaxable housing and food allowances (because he lived off-base) would have been 12-15% of his salary. So he was basically living for free. Was he banking all the money? Did he lose a lot in the stock market?
Something else was going on.
He may have felt pressure because of his religion, but not enough to do what he did. Hell, we're all "outsiders" in some way, as you've said.
I grew up a Protestant Christian in a community that was tightly LDS (at that time). A close relative of the Prophet of the entire church (even having the same last name), lived around the corner with her backyard touching ours. My parents got lectures from her all the time. "We are the true church." "You will not go to the kingdom." "You are condemning your children to Satan."
When kids in the neighborhood or school class can't invite you to their birthday party because you're not the same religion, that's prejudicial. (We invited them.....but some parents wouldn't even let their children in our home, because we were of the Devil.)
I don't know. Has anyone else here grown up in a major religion that was considered "wrong"? I have.
So, I have SOME sympathy for someone who is suspect because of their religion.....and I do believe that he faced "comments" and distrust. The incident with his car *did* happen.
We can't pretend people aren't prejudiced. Look at the comments on Usenet.
BUT...I have NO sympathy for someone who can't solve their own problem, and who murders other people. Good God, he wasn't even a decent representative of his own religion and he's hurt the Muslim community in the US.
More distrust breeds more people like Hasan. He's his own self-fulfilling prophecy.
> > >> On Nov 7, 12:21 am, "Chocolic" <chatter...@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote: > > >>> "bella" <tinydancer...@hotmail.com> wrote in message > > >> [snip]
> > >>>> I don't think he was *nutty*. I think he has a similar ideology as a > > >>>> suicide bomber. > > >>>> bella > > >>> This is probably the only time I'm gonna agree with td.
> > >> I disagree.
> > >> If he did it out of ideology, then he did such an ineffective job that > > >> one would still question his sanity.
> > >> This was a major in the US Army. He wasn't some impoverished bedouin > > >> sneaking past an Israeli checkpoint.
> > > Screw the rank. Look at his personal life, he was lonely, had few or > > > no friends, and seemed frustrated and depress. I think the planning > > > was to either kill himself alone in his apartment, or go out in glory, > > > and take some people with him.
> > > He planned this well enough that he knew he could kill numerous people > > > in a confine area.
> > > Using an explanation like Islam is to cover his failures. He could > > > also an explanation like Arab nationalism as well.
> > > Even these explanations are pathetic. He is a medical doctor. Where > > > ever he was deployed, he treats all.
> > > He wasn't psychotic, he made a cognitive choice. The problem for him > > > was that he was captured alive. He was planning to use his last bullet > > > on himself.
> > Regardless of any life accomplishments, he couldn't even pull off > > "suicide by 'cop'" correctly, or just put the damn gun in his mouth and > > go for it. Cowardly loser. Also, if had such strong beliefs against war, > > why go into the military to begin with.
> How expensive is Medical School, it is a nice side benefit that the > military pays for it, besides paying for the bills for residency..- Hide quoted text -
> - Show quoted text -
The problem with that is that he didn't want to keep his part of the bargain with respect to his committment to the military, he didn't want to be deployed to kill other Muslims. I don't understand why he was transferred from a hospital to a military base -- reminds me of how priests were moved around when their exploits got too troublesome. I don't think he was crazy, being a loner doesn't make you crazy, wanting a wife willing pray five times a day doesn't make you crazy either. ditto on not wanting to go to a war zone. But he had an obligation to the army which he didn't want to repay. Because he is a Muslim who didn't want to kill other Muslims, and he became exactly the kind of Muslim we are at war with. But that doesn't make him crazy either. yD
> >>> "JonesieCat" <jonesiecac...@yahoo.com> wrote in message > >>> news:rT2Jm.52736$ze1.46582@news-server.bigpond.net.au... > >>>> This is only the first half of the story at link. I can't decide if I > >>>> agree with Kris, that the guy was just nutty, or with Comj, who said > >>>> the guy was just a cowardly ay aitch (ahem, paraphrasing here). Maybe > >>>> both? > >>>> jc > >>>> ---
> >>> I don't think he was *nutty*. I think he has a similar ideology as a > >>> suicide bomber.
> >>> bella
> >> This is probably the only time I'm gonna agree with td.
> >> Chocolic
> > I think earthage was similarly inclined, or thought about it anyway. I'm > > not sure myself.
> > jc
> If you believe that this is ideological, shouldn't *any* > person who commits an act of terrorism or mass killing > with a religious connection, have the same tag applied > to their crime?
> What about Timothy McVeigh? He hung out with the charismatic > Christians at Elohim City, and one of the Elohim faithful was > with him when he purchsed weapons at the gun show.
> But we don't tag him with ideological murder. Do we only do > that to people whose religion we don't respect or we fear?
He's an extremist in his religious reviews, just like some Christians who kill abortion doctors. Yes, they have other problems but they are still extreme in their religious views. People also bring their own interpretations to a religion.
It was Major Hasan, though, who increasingly felt let down by the military, and deeply conflicted by his religion, said those who knew him through the mosque. Duane Reasoner Jr., an 18-year-old substitute teacher whose parents worked at Fort Hood, said Major Hassan was told he would be sent to Afghanistan on Nov. 28, and he did not like it.
“He said he should quit the Army,” Mr. Reasoner said. “In the Koran, you’re not supposed to have alliances with Jews or Christian or others, and if you are killed in the military fighting against Muslims, you will go to hell.”
> >>> "JonesieCat" <jonesiecac...@yahoo.com> wrote in message > >>> news:rT2Jm.52736$ze1.46582@news-server.bigpond.net.au... > >>>> This is only the first half of the story at link. I can't decide if I > >>>> agree with Kris, that the guy was just nutty, or with Comj, who said > >>>> the guy was just a cowardly ay aitch (ahem, paraphrasing here). Maybe > >>>> both? > >>>> jc > >>>> ---
> >>> I don't think he was *nutty*. I think he has a similar ideology as a > >>> suicide bomber.
> >>> bella
> >> This is probably the only time I'm gonna agree with td.
> >> Chocolic
> > I think earthage was similarly inclined, or thought about it anyway. I'm > > not sure myself.
> > jc
> If you believe that this is ideological, shouldn't *any* > person who commits an act of terrorism or mass killing > with a religious connection, have the same tag applied > to their crime?
> What about Timothy McVeigh? He hung out with the charismatic > Christians at Elohim City, and one of the Elohim faithful was > with him when he purchsed weapons at the gun show.
> But we don't tag him with ideological murder. Do we only do > that to people whose religion we don't respect or we fear?
He's an extremist in his religious reviews, just like some Christians who kill abortion doctors. Yes, they have other problems but they are still extreme in their religious views. People also bring their own interpretations to a religion.
It was Major Hasan, though, who increasingly felt let down by the military, and deeply conflicted by his religion, said those who knew him through the mosque. Duane Reasoner Jr., an 18-year-old substitute teacher whose parents worked at Fort Hood, said Major Hassan was told he would be sent to Afghanistan on Nov. 28, and he did not like it.
“He said he should quit the Army,” Mr. Reasoner said. “In the Koran, you’re not supposed to have alliances with Jews or Christian or others, and if you are killed in the military fighting against Muslims, you will go to hell.”
-----------------------------------------------
As I read that, I wondered why he didn't quit the Army?
He certainly knew the strings to pull. A rational person would have, even if they held "extreme" religious views.
I don't think there's one single reason he did this, except for his own weakness and failures.
> >> On Nov 7, 12:21 am, "Chocolic" <chatter...@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote: > >> > "bella" <tinydancer...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >> [snip]
> >> > > I don't think he was *nutty*. I think he has a similar ideology as a > >> > > suicide bomber.
> >> > > bella
> >> > This is probably the only time I'm gonna agree with td.
> >> I disagree.
> >> If he did it out of ideology, then he did such an ineffective job that > >> one would still question his sanity.
> >> This was a major in the US Army. He wasn't some impoverished bedouin > >> sneaking past an Israeli checkpoint.
> > Screw the rank. Look at his personal life, he was lonely, had few or > > no friends, and seemed frustrated and depress. I think the planning > > was to either kill himself alone in his apartment, or go out in glory, > > and take some people with him.
> > He planned this well enough that he knew he could kill numerous people > > in a confine area.
> > Using an explanation like Islam is to cover his failures. He could > > also an explanation like Arab nationalism as well.
> > Even these explanations are pathetic. He is a medical doctor. Where > > ever he was deployed, he treats all.
> > He wasn't psychotic, he made a cognitive choice. The problem for him > > was that he was captured alive. He was planning to use his last bullet > > on himself.
> I think he was hoping someone else would kill him.
> When a white guy shoots up a post office, they call > that going postal, said Victor Benjamin II, 30, a former > member of the Army. But when a Muslim does it, > they call it jihad.
> Kris
But I don't think any postal workers have yelled any religious names or quotes before opening fire. Hasan jumped up on a table and shouted "Allahu akbar" (Arabic for "God is great!") before he began shooting.
> > >>> "JonesieCat" <jonesiecac...@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > >>> news:rT2Jm.52736$ze1.46582@news-server.bigpond.net.au... > > >>>> This is only the first half of the story at link. I can't decide if I > > >>>> agree with Kris, that the guy was just nutty, or with Comj, who said > > >>>> the guy was just a cowardly ay aitch (ahem, paraphrasing here). Maybe > > >>>> both? > > >>>> jc > > >>>> ---
> > >>> I don't think he was *nutty*. I think he has a similar ideology as a > > >>> suicide bomber.
> > >>> bella
> > >> This is probably the only time I'm gonna agree with td.
> > >> Chocolic
> > > I think earthage was similarly inclined, or thought about it anyway. I'm > > > not sure myself.
> > > jc
> > If you believe that this is ideological, shouldn't *any* > > person who commits an act of terrorism or mass killing > > with a religious connection, have the same tag applied > > to their crime?
> > What about Timothy McVeigh? He hung out with the charismatic > > Christians at Elohim City, and one of the Elohim faithful was > > with him when he purchsed weapons at the gun show.
> > But we don't tag him with ideological murder. Do we only do > > that to people whose religion we don't respect or we fear?
> He's an extremist in his religious reviews, just like some Christians > who kill abortion doctors. Yes, they have other problems but they > are still extreme in their religious views. People also bring their > own interpretations to a religion.
> It was Major Hasan, though, who increasingly felt let down by the > military, and deeply conflicted by his religion, said those who knew > him through the mosque. Duane Reasoner Jr., an 18-year-old substitute > teacher whose parents worked at Fort Hood, said Major Hassan was told > he would be sent to Afghanistan on Nov. 28, and he did not like it.
> “He said he should quit the Army,” Mr. Reasoner said. “In the Koran, > you’re not supposed to have alliances with Jews or Christian or > others, and if you are killed in the military fighting against > Muslims, you will go to hell.”
> -----------------------------------------------
> As I read that, I wondered why he didn't quit the Army?
> He certainly knew the strings to pull. A rational > person would have, even if they held "extreme" religious > views.
> I don't think there's one single reason he did this, except > for his own weakness and failures.
> Kris
It doesn't even make sense. He must have been really depressed, with attendant scrambled thinking.
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