No parents at Richmond dance where girl raped By Karl Fischer and Todd Perlman Contra Costa Times Posted: 10/31/2009 08:00:00 PM PDT Updated: 11/01/2009 09:23:47 PM PST
The world surrounding Richmond High School teemed with outrage after last weekend's gang rape of a 15-year-old girl outside her homecoming dance, and those in charge still don't know where to point the finger.
But they did notice one thing about the Oct. 24 dance.
"We had no parents at this event," Richmond High Principal Julio Franco said.
The same night, less than a quarter-mile away, Salesian High School held its homecoming dance without incident, and with parents in attendance. Same for El Cerrito High School, which two nights earlier fielded 10 volunteers along with the usual complement of administrators, teachers and police.
Richmond High struggles perennially to engage its families, most of them residents of diverse but poor flatland neighborhoods in San Pablo, unincorporated North Richmond and parts of Central Richmond. Three years ago, a principal even tried a doorbell campaign.
It remains difficult to sustain parental commitment, Franco admitted.
"That's one of the things we're working on, last year and this year, is trying to get more parents to come to our events," he said.
Franco said many Richmond High parents usually cannot attend evening events for their high schoolers because they have other kids at home and no one to watch them. A newsletter mailed to parents a few weeks ago outlined upcoming events, but no parents volunteered.
"We welcome parents at any time, but sometimes they cannot come," he said. "That's why we make sure we have officers and site supervisors and as many teachers as we can get."
Perimeter checks?
At the homecoming dance in the school's gymnasium were six teachers who volunteered to chaperon. There also were two vice principals and two site supervisors. In addition, four Richmond police officers — school-resource officers who work on the city's campuses daily — spent most of the night at the dance on overtime.
The police, Franco said, help provide security.
"One of the assumptions we make is that they do the perimeter checks," he added, meaning they patrol around the school.
Nobody told the police, apparently.
"Obviously, in this case there has been miscommunication between the (West Contra Costa) school district and the Police Department regarding what role school-resource officers play at these events," Richmond police Chief Chris Magnus said. "As far as patrolling the campus, providing perimeter security, that sort of thing ... that's not what they're there to do."
The police kept an eye on the gym and the parking lot to deter fights, alcohol consumption and similar disruptions, Magnus said. They do not provide after-hours security for the entire campus, which spans multiple city blocks. That is the school district's responsibility, he said.
The distinction matters because a group attacked the victim in a courtyard across campus as music played and about 250 students danced in the gym. And some of the suspects did not attend — the school allowed only students, and two of those arrested were older than school age.
The victim, a student, left the dance about 9:30 p.m. Before she called for a ride home, a classmate called her over to the poorly lit courtyard, where a group of young people were hanging out and drinking alcohol.
The girl drank a large amount of brandy quickly and soon collapsed; while helpless, she fell victim to repeated rape, beatings and robbery at the hands of several people. Richmond police by Friday had arrested six suspects, four of whom prosecutors charged.
'We have to be the people'
"Cameras and gates will not solve the problem. You've got to have a parent presence. You can't expect a bankrupt district to have the people to send. We have to be the people," said Michele Jawad, a longtime parent volunteer in El Cerrito schools and a member of the school district's safety committee.
Jawad helped organize the volunteers at El Cerrito High's homecoming dance, along with 24 volunteers at the football game the next day.
"We just have to have more parents, grandparents, retired people, neighbors involved. They have to step up for the kids. There's no excuse. If kids don't have parents (available), then others should be willing to step in," Jawad said. "The days of sending kids to school and forgetting about them are gone."
Much planning goes into security for school dances and sporting events at East Bay campuses. At Northgate High School in Walnut Creek, for example, administrators used random Breathalyzer testing to curtail student drinking at this year's homecoming dance.
Most schools work closely with local police to prepare. Individual campus administrations generally work independently from their school districts to craft safety plans tailored for their sites. Some schools, such as Liberty High School in Brentwood and Hercules Middle/ High School, employ chaperon-to-student ratios as guides for planning dance security.
Calls, escorts
Such high schools as Concord and College Park call the parents of students who don't show up for a dance for which they purchased tickets. No students may leave until the dance ends without calling their parents. Those who walk to their cars in the parking lot are escorted.
Concord High doesn't use parent chaperones, in part because students don't want them. But attendees are carefully monitored and may not come or go without permission, Principal Gary McAdam said.
"It's a school event," added Barbara Oaks, principal at College Park in Pleasant Hill. "Attendance, if you say you're going to be here, is required. It's very labor intensive, but these things are nighttime events that you have to be very careful about. We want everybody to be safe and have a good time. It's very unfortunate that what happened (in Richmond) happened."
Staff writers Theresa Harrington, Chris Treadway, Rowena Coetsee, Tom Lochner, Peter Hegarty, Robert Jordan and Katherine Tam contributed to this story.
>No parents at Richmond dance where girl raped > ...
Any parent with enough the time, interest and guts to chaperone a dance for their kid at Richmond High will have already figured out how to get their kid into a different school.
> >No parents at Richmond dance where girl raped > > ...
> Any parent with enough the time, interest and guts to chaperone > a dance for their kid at Richmond High will have already figured > out how to get their kid into a different school.
No parents at Richmond dance where girl raped By Karl Fischer and Todd Perlman Contra Costa Times Posted: 10/31/2009 08:00:00 PM PDT Updated: 11/01/2009 09:23:47 PM PST
The world surrounding Richmond High School teemed with outrage after last weekend's gang rape of a 15-year-old girl outside her homecoming dance, and those in charge still don't know where to point the finger.
But they did notice one thing about the Oct. 24 dance.
"We had no parents at this event," Richmond High Principal Julio Franco said.
The same night, less than a quarter-mile away, Salesian High School held its homecoming dance without incident, and with parents in attendance. Same for El Cerrito High School, which two nights earlier fielded 10 volunteers along with the usual complement of administrators, teachers and police.
Richmond High struggles perennially to engage its families, most of them residents of diverse but poor flatland neighborhoods in San Pablo, unincorporated North Richmond and parts of Central Richmond. Three years ago, a principal even tried a doorbell campaign.
It remains difficult to sustain parental commitment, Franco admitted.
"That's one of the things we're working on, last year and this year, is trying to get more parents to come to our events," he said.
Franco said many Richmond High parents usually cannot attend evening events for their high schoolers because they have other kids at home and no one to watch them. A newsletter mailed to parents a few weeks ago outlined upcoming events, but no parents volunteered.
"We welcome parents at any time, but sometimes they cannot come," he said. "That's why we make sure we have officers and site supervisors and as many teachers as we can get."
Perimeter checks?
At the homecoming dance in the school's gymnasium were six teachers who volunteered to chaperon. There also were two vice principals and two site supervisors. In addition, four Richmond police officers — school-resource officers who work on the city's campuses daily — spent most of the night at the dance on overtime.
The police, Franco said, help provide security.
"One of the assumptions we make is that they do the perimeter checks," he added, meaning they patrol around the school.
Nobody told the police, apparently.
"Obviously, in this case there has been miscommunication between the (West Contra Costa) school district and the Police Department regarding what role school-resource officers play at these events," Richmond police Chief Chris Magnus said. "As far as patrolling the campus, providing perimeter security, that sort of thing ... that's not what they're there to do."
The police kept an eye on the gym and the parking lot to deter fights, alcohol consumption and similar disruptions, Magnus said. They do not provide after-hours security for the entire campus, which spans multiple city blocks. That is the school district's responsibility, he said.
The distinction matters because a group attacked the victim in a courtyard across campus as music played and about 250 students danced in the gym. And some of the suspects did not attend — the school allowed only students, and two of those arrested were older than school age.
The victim, a student, left the dance about 9:30 p.m. Before she called for a ride home, a classmate called her over to the poorly lit courtyard, where a group of young people were hanging out and drinking alcohol.
The girl drank a large amount of brandy quickly and soon collapsed; while helpless, she fell victim to repeated rape, beatings and robbery at the hands of several people. Richmond police by Friday had arrested six suspects, four of whom prosecutors charged.
'We have to be the people'
"Cameras and gates will not solve the problem. You've got to have a parent presence. You can't expect a bankrupt district to have the people to send. We have to be the people," said Michele Jawad, a longtime parent volunteer in El Cerrito schools and a member of the school district's safety committee.
Jawad helped organize the volunteers at El Cerrito High's homecoming dance, along with 24 volunteers at the football game the next day.
"We just have to have more parents, grandparents, retired people, neighbors involved. They have to step up for the kids. There's no excuse. If kids don't have parents (available), then others should be willing to step in," Jawad said. "The days of sending kids to school and forgetting about them are gone."
Much planning goes into security for school dances and sporting events at East Bay campuses. At Northgate High School in Walnut Creek, for example, administrators used random Breathalyzer testing to curtail student drinking at this year's homecoming dance.
Most schools work closely with local police to prepare. Individual campus administrations generally work independently from their school districts to craft safety plans tailored for their sites. Some schools, such as Liberty High School in Brentwood and Hercules Middle/ High School, employ chaperon-to-student ratios as guides for planning dance security.
Calls, escorts
Such high schools as Concord and College Park call the parents of students who don't show up for a dance for which they purchased tickets. No students may leave until the dance ends without calling their parents. Those who walk to their cars in the parking lot are escorted.
Concord High doesn't use parent chaperones, in part because students don't want them. But attendees are carefully monitored and may not come or go without permission, Principal Gary McAdam said.
"It's a school event," added Barbara Oaks, principal at College Park in Pleasant Hill. "Attendance, if you say you're going to be here, is required. It's very labor intensive, but these things are nighttime events that you have to be very careful about. We want everybody to be safe and have a good time. It's very unfortunate that what happened (in Richmond) happened."
Staff writers Theresa Harrington, Chris Treadway, Rowena Coetsee, Tom Lochner, Peter Hegarty, Robert Jordan and Katherine Tam contributed to this story.
>>No parents at Richmond dance where girl raped >> ...
> Any parent with enough the time, interest and guts to chaperone > a dance for their kid at Richmond High will have already figured > out how to get their kid into a different school.
> Two high schools, a quarter mile apart. 2500 feet. One has > problems, one does not.
> Is it at all possible that the "problem" kids are assigned to one > crappy school?
It might be some of this. Are they in the same district?
There might be something to what BK Sherman said. It's possible that parents with the knowledge, time, energy and possibly money to be involved with their kids would have gotten them to another school.
I don't know about California, but here in the east, there are huge differences in opportunity depending on what neighborhood you live it. Of course, there are huge difference in home prices, and such, too.
The bottom line is that there are students who are not given much opportunity - through no fault of their own. There is much about our "public" school system that resembles the class-based exclusion of private schools. "I've got mine. F___ the rest of you."
>> Two high schools, a quarter mile apart. 2500 feet. One has >> problems, one does not.
>> Is it at all possible that the "problem" kids are assigned to one >> crappy school?
> It might be some of this. Are they in the same district?
> There might be something to what BK Sherman said. It's possible that > parents with the knowledge, time, energy and possibly money to be > involved with their kids would have gotten them to another school.
> I don't know about California, but here in the east, there are huge > differences in opportunity depending on what neighborhood you live > it. Of course, there are huge difference in home prices, and such, > too.
> The bottom line is that there are students who are not given much > opportunity - through no fault of their own. There is much about our > "public" school system that resembles the class-based exclusion of > private schools. "I've got mine. F___ the rest of you."
> Mick
FWIW it looks like Salesian High School is a Catholic school, so an effort needs to be made to get kids in there: http://www.salesian.com/admissions.asp
>>> Two high schools, a quarter mile apart. 2500 feet. One has >>> problems, one does not.
>>> Is it at all possible that the "problem" kids are assigned to one >>> crappy school?
>> It might be some of this. Are they in the same district?
>> There might be something to what BK Sherman said. It's possible that >> parents with the knowledge, time, energy and possibly money to be >> involved with their kids would have gotten them to another school.
>> I don't know about California, but here in the east, there are huge >> differences in opportunity depending on what neighborhood you live >> it. Of course, there are huge difference in home prices, and such, >> too.
>> The bottom line is that there are students who are not given much >> opportunity - through no fault of their own. There is much about our >> "public" school system that resembles the class-based exclusion of >> private schools. "I've got mine. F___ the rest of you."
>> Mick
> FWIW it looks like Salesian High School is a Catholic school, so an > effort needs to be made to get kids in there: > http://www.salesian.com/admissions.asp
Oops - wanted to add about Richmond, here is a Wiki page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richmond_High_School_%28Richmond,_Califo... - it states: "the school has a predominantly "Hispanic or Latino" student base, accounting for 76.43% of their total enrollment. The SARC report also cites that 75% of the student base is "Socioeconomically Disadvantaged", with 54% designated as "English Learners"."
> >>> Two high schools, a quarter mile apart. 2500 feet. One has > >>> problems, one does not.
> >>> Is it at all possible that the "problem" kids are assigned to one > >>> crappy school?
> >> It might be some of this. Are they in the same district?
> >> There might be something to what BK Sherman said. It's possible that > >> parents with the knowledge, time, energy and possibly money to be > >> involved with their kids would have gotten them to another school.
> >> I don't know about California, but here in the east, there are huge > >> differences in opportunity depending on what neighborhood you live > >> it. Of course, there are huge difference in home prices, and such, > >> too.
> >> The bottom line is that there are students who are not given much > >> opportunity - through no fault of their own. There is much about our > >> "public" school system that resembles the class-based exclusion of > >> private schools. "I've got mine. F___ the rest of you."
> >> Mick
> > FWIW it looks like Salesian High School is a Catholic school, so an > > effort needs to be made to get kids in there: > >http://www.salesian.com/admissions.asp
> Oops - wanted to add about Richmond, here is a Wiki page:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richmond_High_School_%28Richmond,_Califo... > - it states: "the school has a predominantly "Hispanic or Latino" > student base, accounting for 76.43% of their total enrollment. The SARC > report also cites that 75% of the student base is "Socioeconomically > Disadvantaged", with 54% designated as "English Learners"
Thanks Poe. I looked at the Wiki page for other HS's in teh saem district (a shift parents could lilely make fore their kids jsut with some phone calls and maybe a little pushing on elected officials)
The Richmond entry said most of the kids go to Jr College and implied they drop out.
The El Cerrito wiki entry said:
"Top El Cerrito students regularly get into elite universities. From the graduating class of 2009 for instance students will be going to Stanford, Brown, Cornell, Columbia, UCLA, UC Berkeley, and UC San Diego among others."
Of course, this just means the the top 1% or so of graduates got into a good college, which would be true even of a lot of really bad schools. I'm thinking (hoping) the same could be said about Richmond, although it was not said.
The El Cerrito HS Wiki entry had this to say about the town of Richmond (stuff I didn't know), with a reference to where they got it:
"Many El Cerrito students come from the neighboring city of Richmond which is also in the West Contra Costa Unified School District. In 2003 and 2005 the Morgan Quitno social research group's annual study showed that on a per-capita basis Richmond was California’s “most dangerous city”, beating out other hopefuls Compton and Oakland. Also, two years in a row it was the eleventh most violent city in the United States. The ranking is based on six violent crimes including murder, rape, and aggravated assault. (See http://www.morganquitno.com/ cit05pop.htm0)"
Richmond doesn't sound like a very good place to be.
Wiki is not a good reference for resolving arguments or finding out about controversial subjects, but it can be an OK starting source for information, IMO.
> >> Two high schools, a quarter mile apart. 2500 feet. One has > >> problems, one does not.
> >> Is it at all possible that the "problem" kids are assigned to one > >> crappy school?
> > It might be some of this. Are they in the same district?
> > There might be something to what BK Sherman said. It's possible that > > parents with the knowledge, time, energy and possibly money to be > > involved with their kids would have gotten them to another school.
> > I don't know about California, but here in the east, there are huge > > differences in opportunity depending on what neighborhood you live > > it. Of course, there are huge difference in home prices, and such, > > too.
> > The bottom line is that there are students who are not given much > > opportunity - through no fault of their own. There is much about our > > "public" school system that resembles the class-based exclusion of > > private schools. "I've got mine. F___ the rest of you."
> > Mick
> FWIW it looks like Salesian High School is a Catholic school, so an > effort needs to be made to get kids in there: > http://www.salesian.com/admissions.asp
I thought it was strange that there would be two public high schools located less than a quarter-mile apart. Where I grew up there was a distance of about three miles between high schools. Not only effort would need to be made to get kids into the Catholic School, the parents would also have to pay and not many have that kind of money.
$785 Registration, Capital Improvement and Yearbook Fees
Current Students: Parent Involvement Requirement - 20 Service and 15 Participation Hours by April 30, 2010 or $1,000, due May 15, 2010 $100 Required Yearly Raffles ($50 each Fall and Spring)
$500 Textbooks (approximate estimate) * All fees are subject to change for 2010-2011
>>> Two high schools, a quarter mile apart. 2500 feet. One has >>> problems, one does not.
>>> Is it at all possible that the "problem" kids are assigned to one >>> crappy school?
>> It might be some of this. Are they in the same district?
>> There might be something to what BK Sherman said. It's possible that >> parents with the knowledge, time, energy and possibly money to be >> involved with their kids would have gotten them to another school.
>> I don't know about California, but here in the east, there are huge >> differences in opportunity depending on what neighborhood you live >> it. Of course, there are huge difference in home prices, and such, >> too.
>> The bottom line is that there are students who are not given much >> opportunity - through no fault of their own. There is much about our >> "public" school system that resembles the class-based exclusion of >> private schools. "I've got mine. F___ the rest of you."
>> Mick
> FWIW it looks like Salesian High School is a Catholic school, so an effort > needs to be made to get kids in there: > http://www.salesian.com/admissions.asp
Ah....now I'm embarrassed that I didn't do that research myself. Thanks.
Of COURSE there's a difference between parents at a private school and those who live in a poor, gang-infested neighborhood.
I'm a public school advocate BUT we've got a lot of shitty ones, and it sounds like Richmond HS might actually be making things worse.
>>>> Two high schools, a quarter mile apart. 2500 feet. One has >>>> problems, one does not.
>>>> Is it at all possible that the "problem" kids are assigned to one >>>> crappy school?
>>> It might be some of this. Are they in the same district?
>>> There might be something to what BK Sherman said. It's possible that >>> parents with the knowledge, time, energy and possibly money to be >>> involved with their kids would have gotten them to another school.
>>> I don't know about California, but here in the east, there are huge >>> differences in opportunity depending on what neighborhood you live >>> it. Of course, there are huge difference in home prices, and such, >>> too.
>>> The bottom line is that there are students who are not given much >>> opportunity - through no fault of their own. There is much about our >>> "public" school system that resembles the class-based exclusion of >>> private schools. "I've got mine. F___ the rest of you."
>>> Mick
>> FWIW it looks like Salesian High School is a Catholic school, so an >> effort needs to be made to get kids in there: >> http://www.salesian.com/admissions.asp
> Oops - wanted to add about Richmond, here is a Wiki page: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richmond_High_School_%28Richmond,_Califo... - > it states: "the school has a predominantly "Hispanic or Latino" student > base, accounting for 76.43% of their total enrollment. The SARC report > also cites that 75% of the student base is "Socioeconomically > Disadvantaged", with 54% designated as "English Learners"."
Probably lots of illegals....but:
I remember, when I was a kid, having kids in our class who couldn't speak English. They were the children of Europeans who emigrated here, after their parents had been converted to Mormonism. Mostly Dutch, IIRC.
Now, in SLC, they're teaching English to the masses of Tongans and Samoans who have come here......(and we're dealing with the gang issues, too - which can be Googled if anyone's interested).
I'm not entirely sure that illegals are any worse than "legals", when they're plunked down into communities and keep to their own in every way.
While I don't think we can force people to speak English, we shouldn't be printing legal documents in several languages. Let their "advocates" teach them English, let's use our schools to do it, and assimilate.
>> >> Two high schools, a quarter mile apart. 2500 feet. One has >> >> problems, one does not.
>> >> Is it at all possible that the "problem" kids are assigned to one >> >> crappy school?
>> > It might be some of this. Are they in the same district?
>> > There might be something to what BK Sherman said. It's possible that >> > parents with the knowledge, time, energy and possibly money to be >> > involved with their kids would have gotten them to another school.
>> > I don't know about California, but here in the east, there are huge >> > differences in opportunity depending on what neighborhood you live >> > it. Of course, there are huge difference in home prices, and such, >> > too.
>> > The bottom line is that there are students who are not given much >> > opportunity - through no fault of their own. There is much about our >> > "public" school system that resembles the class-based exclusion of >> > private schools. "I've got mine. F___ the rest of you."
>> > Mick
>> FWIW it looks like Salesian High School is a Catholic school, so an >> effort needs to be made to get kids in there: >> http://www.salesian.com/admissions.asp
> I thought it was strange that there would be two public high schools > located less than a quarter-mile apart. Where I grew up there was > a distance of about three miles between high schools. Not only > effort would need to be made to get kids into the Catholic School, > the parents would also have to pay and not many have that kind > of money.
> $785 Registration, Capital Improvement and Yearbook Fees
> Current Students: Parent Involvement Requirement - 20 Service and 15 > Participation Hours by April 30, 2010 or $1,000, due May 15, 2010 > $100 Required Yearly Raffles ($50 each Fall and Spring)
> $500 Textbooks (approximate estimate) * All fees are subject to change > for 2010-2011
And THAT is how you get parents involved! Tie fees to involvement.
Although, if you've got a bunch of single parents trying to support families, I'm not sure how they can spend much time at the school.
And I'm not a bit in favor of having the pregnant girls attend school with the rest, either. The cutesy "Juno" movie was a hit with the teenagers.
> "Top El Cerrito students regularly get into elite universities. From > the graduating class of 2009 for instance students will be going to > Stanford, Brown, Cornell, Columbia, UCLA, UC Berkeley, and UC San > Diego among others."
> Of course, this just means the the top 1% or so of graduates got into > a good college, which would be true even of a lot of really bad > schools. I'm thinking (hoping) the same could be said about Richmond, > although it was not said.
> The El Cerrito HS Wiki entry had this to say about the town of > Richmond (stuff I didn't know), with a reference to where they got it:
I'm pretty sure that any Richmond parents who could get their kids into El Cerrito high have already done so. It's a much more affluent town, with correspondingly better funded schools.
earthage wrote: > I thought it was strange that there would be two public high schools > located less than a quarter-mile apart. Where I grew up there was > a distance of about three miles between high schools.
Where I grew up, there was only one HS in the county. And only 92 counties in the whole state.
> >>> Two high schools, a quarter mile apart. 2500 feet. One has > >>> problems, one does not.
> >>> Is it at all possible that the "problem" kids are assigned to one > >>> crappy school?
> >> It might be some of this. Are they in the same district?
> >> There might be something to what BK Sherman said. It's possible that > >> parents with the knowledge, time, energy and possibly money to be > >> involved with their kids would have gotten them to another school.
> >> I don't know about California, but here in the east, there are huge > >> differences in opportunity depending on what neighborhood you live > >> it. Of course, there are huge difference in home prices, and such, > >> too.
> >> The bottom line is that there are students who are not given much > >> opportunity - through no fault of their own. There is much about our > >> "public" school system that resembles the class-based exclusion of > >> private schools. "I've got mine. F___ the rest of you."
> >> Mick
> > FWIW it looks like Salesian High School is a Catholic school, so an > > effort needs to be made to get kids in there: > >http://www.salesian.com/admissions.asp
> Oops - wanted to add about Richmond, here is a Wiki page:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richmond_High_School_%28Richmond,_Califo... > - it states: "the school has a predominantly "Hispanic or Latino" > student base, accounting for 76.43% of their total enrollment. The SARC > report also cites that 75% of the student base is "Socioeconomically > Disadvantaged", with 54% designated as "English Learners"."-
It is interesting taht there is a much different ethnic mix in two of the public high schools in the same school district.
Richmond is 76% latin or hispanic and El Cerrito is 24% hispanic. This might be a reproting problem with Wiki (they don't have the same format for reporting ethnicity in the two school so the numbers probably came from different places).
There might be some kind of tracking ("He's a bad ass? Send him to Richmond.") or possibly an ethnic self-selection. Or it jsut might reflect different neighborhoods in the same district, I don't know.
> On Nov 4, 11:35 am, "Kris Baker" <parallelcoo...@ggmail.com> wrote: > > Two high schools, a quarter mile apart. 2500 feet. One has > > problems, one does not. > > Is it at all possible that the "problem" kids are assigned to one > > crappy school?
I don't know about CA, but in FL schools are graded, and students at schools with an F grade are allowed to leave that school and go pretty much where they wish in the system, space permitting.
Mick wrote: > It might be some of this. Are they in the same district?
> There might be something to what BK Sherman said. It's possible that > parents with the knowledge, time, energy and possibly money to be > involved with their kids would have gotten them to another school.
You are correct, sir.
> I don't know about California, but here in the east, there are huge > differences in opportunity depending on what neighborhood you live > it. Of course, there are huge difference in home prices, and such, > too.
> The bottom line is that there are students who are not given much > opportunity - through no fault of their own. There is much about our > "public" school system that resembles the class-based exclusion of > private schools. "I've got mine. F___ the rest of you."
Nice little elitist jab there. There are plenty of parents, this one included, who work two jobs and sacrifice to send their kids to private school. If wanting your kid to be in a decent environment where they will actually be able to learn and not have to worry about being raped in the bathroom is "I've got mine, fuck the rest of you" then so be it. Someone else can do social experiments on their kid by abandoning them to the government school system. Not me.
M wrote: > On Nov 4, 12:06 pm, Poe <haun...@terrible-thought.com> wrote: >> Poe wrote: >>> M wrote: >>>> On Nov 4, 11:35 am, "Kris Baker" <parallelcoo...@ggmail.com> wrote: >>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> Two high schools, a quarter mile apart. 2500 feet. One has >>>>> problems, one does not. >>>>> Is it at all possible that the "problem" kids are assigned to one >>>>> crappy school? >>>> It might be some of this. Are they in the same district? >>>> There might be something to what BK Sherman said. It's possible that >>>> parents with the knowledge, time, energy and possibly money to be >>>> involved with their kids would have gotten them to another school. >>>> I don't know about California, but here in the east, there are huge >>>> differences in opportunity depending on what neighborhood you live >>>> it. Of course, there are huge difference in home prices, and such, >>>> too. >>>> The bottom line is that there are students who are not given much >>>> opportunity - through no fault of their own. There is much about our >>>> "public" school system that resembles the class-based exclusion of >>>> private schools. "I've got mine. F___ the rest of you." >>>> Mick >>> FWIW it looks like Salesian High School is a Catholic school, so an >>> effort needs to be made to get kids in there: >>> http://www.salesian.com/admissions.asp >> Oops - wanted to add about Richmond, here is a Wiki page:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richmond_High_School_%28Richmond,_Califo... >> - it states: "the school has a predominantly "Hispanic or Latino" >> student base, accounting for 76.43% of their total enrollment. The SARC >> report also cites that 75% of the student base is "Socioeconomically >> Disadvantaged", with 54% designated as "English Learners"."-
> It is interesting taht there is a much different ethnic mix in two of > the public high schools in the same school district.
> Richmond is 76% latin or hispanic and El Cerrito is 24% hispanic. > This might be a reproting problem with Wiki (they don't have the same > format for reporting ethnicity in the two school so the numbers > probably came from different places).
> There might be some kind of tracking ("He's a bad ass? Send him to > Richmond.") or possibly an ethnic self-selection. Or it jsut might > reflect different neighborhoods in the same district, I don't know.
> > >>> Two high schools, a quarter mile apart. 2500 feet. One has > > >>> problems, one does not.
> > >>> Is it at all possible that the "problem" kids are assigned to one > > >>> crappy school?
> > >> It might be some of this. Are they in the same district?
> > >> There might be something to what BK Sherman said. It's possible that > > >> parents with the knowledge, time, energy and possibly money to be > > >> involved with their kids would have gotten them to another school.
> > >> I don't know about California, but here in the east, there are huge > > >> differences in opportunity depending on what neighborhood you live > > >> it. Of course, there are huge difference in home prices, and such, > > >> too.
> > >> The bottom line is that there are students who are not given much > > >> opportunity - through no fault of their own. There is much about our > > >> "public" school system that resembles the class-based exclusion of > > >> private schools. "I've got mine. F___ the rest of you."
> > >> Mick
> > > FWIW it looks like Salesian High School is a Catholic school, so an > > > effort needs to be made to get kids in there: > > >http://www.salesian.com/admissions.asp
> > Oops - wanted to add about Richmond, here is a Wiki page:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richmond_High_School_%28Richmond,_Califo... > > - it states: "the school has a predominantly "Hispanic or Latino" > > student base, accounting for 76.43% of their total enrollment. The SARC > > report also cites that 75% of the student base is "Socioeconomically > > Disadvantaged", with 54% designated as "English Learners"."-
> It is interesting taht there is a much different ethnic mix in two of > the public high schools in the same school district.
> Richmond is 76% latin or hispanic and El Cerrito is 24% hispanic. > This might be a reproting problem with Wiki (they don't have the same > format for reporting ethnicity in the two school so the numbers > probably came from different places).
> There might be some kind of tracking ("He's a bad ass? Send him to > Richmond.") or possibly an ethnic self-selection. Or it jsut might > reflect different neighborhoods in the same district, I don't know.
> Mick
Richmond High School is just a regular public school with a lot of problems because of socioeconomics. Surely, there are schools like it on the East Coast. I know of people in the San Jose area who have used someone else's address to have their child attend a better school.
That's why schools have a lot to do with home values. In fact there is a city here in the south Bay Area that is said to be very well-known in Hong Kong because of their schools and when Chinese move here they buy in this area - Cupertino (44% Asian). Fremont is another city well known for its schools (45% Asian.) A friend had an aunt and uncle in Fremont whose house back in the 90s was going up every year more than houses in other areas. It was just an ordinary two-story house. I asked why. She said everyone wants to buy in Fremont because of the schools.
As far as the kids in the Richmond rape, several actually had been attending Richmond High but were transferred out to continuation schools.
Ari Abdallah Morales, 16, of San Pablo and Marcelles James Peter, 17, of Pinole were transferred out of Richmond High to continuation high schools. Although Peter has a shelf of city league soccer trophies, he and the others are mediocre pupils at best, sources said. ============
Omega High School is one of four Necessary Small Continuation Schools that serves the at-risk student population in the West Contra Costa Unified School District (WCCUSD). Omega is located in the city of Richmond in Contra Costa County, California. Omega students typically are deficient in the credits necessary for graduation and have a background of non-attendance. Omega provides these students with a personalized, individualized, and self-paced instructional program designed to fit their needs and facilitate a successful academic education experience. Omega has three teachers, a counselor, and a full-time on-site coordinator. =======
Other district continuation schools are Gompers and Kappa.
> > I thought it was strange that there would be two public high schools > > located less than a quarter-mile apart. Where I grew up there was > > a distance of about three miles between high schools.
> Where I grew up, there was only one HS in the county. > And only 92 counties in the whole state.
I'm sorry but I can't remember from what state you moved to California, but IIRC it's in the midwest. 92 counties is a lot compared to California's 58 counties. And of course there probably are small populated counties in California with only one high school.
> > >>> Two high schools, a quarter mile apart. 2500 feet. One has > > >>> problems, one does not.
> > >>> Is it at all possible that the "problem" kids are assigned to one > > >>> crappy school?
> > >> It might be some of this. Are they in the same district?
> > >> There might be something to what BK Sherman said. It's possible that > > >> parents with the knowledge, time, energy and possibly money to be > > >> involved with their kids would have gotten them to another school.
> > >> I don't know about California, but here in the east, there are huge > > >> differences in opportunity depending on what neighborhood you live > > >> it. Of course, there are huge difference in home prices, and such, > > >> too.
> > >> The bottom line is that there are students who are not given much > > >> opportunity - through no fault of their own. There is much about our > > >> "public" school system that resembles the class-based exclusion of > > >> private schools. "I've got mine. F___ the rest of you."
> > >> Mick
> > > FWIW it looks like Salesian High School is a Catholic school, so an > > > effort needs to be made to get kids in there: > > >http://www.salesian.com/admissions.asp
> > Oops - wanted to add about Richmond, here is a Wiki > > page:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richmond_High_School_%28Richmond,_Califo... > > - it states: "the school has a predominantly "Hispanic or Latino" > > student base, accounting for 76.43% of their total enrollment. The SARC > > report also cites that 75% of the student base is "Socioeconomically > > Disadvantaged", with 54% designated as "English Learners"."-
> It is interesting taht there is a much different ethnic mix in two of > the public high schools in the same school district.
> Richmond is 76% latin or hispanic and El Cerrito is 24% hispanic. > This might be a reproting problem with Wiki (they don't have the same > format for reporting ethnicity in the two school so the numbers > probably came from different places).
> There might be some kind of tracking ("He's a bad ass? Send him to > Richmond.") or possibly an ethnic self-selection. Or it jsut might > reflect different neighborhoods in the same district, I don't know.
> Mick
Richmond High School is just a regular public school with a lot of problems because of socioeconomics. Surely, there are schools like it on the East Coast. I know of people in the San Jose area who have used someone else's address to have their child attend a better school.
That's why schools have a lot to do with home values. In fact there is a city here in the south Bay Area that is said to be very well-known in Hong Kong because of their schools and when Chinese move here they buy in this area - Cupertino (44% Asian). Fremont is another city well known for its schools (45% Asian.) A friend had an aunt and uncle in Fremont whose house back in the 90s was going up every year more than houses in other areas. It was just an ordinary two-story house. I asked why. She said everyone wants to buy in Fremont because of the schools.
As far as the kids in the Richmond rape, several actually had been attending Richmond High but were transferred out to continuation schools.
Ari Abdallah Morales, 16, of San Pablo and Marcelles James Peter, 17, of Pinole were transferred out of Richmond High to continuation high schools. Although Peter has a shelf of city league soccer trophies, he and the others are mediocre pupils at best, sources said. ============
Omega High School is one of four Necessary Small Continuation Schools that serves the at-risk student population in the West Contra Costa Unified School District (WCCUSD). Omega is located in the city of Richmond in Contra Costa County, California. Omega students typically are deficient in the credits necessary for graduation and have a background of non-attendance. Omega provides these students with a personalized, individualized, and self-paced instructional program designed to fit their needs and facilitate a successful academic education experience. Omega has three teachers, a counselor, and a full-time on-site coordinator. =======
Other district continuation schools are Gompers and Kappa. --------------- I'm so very tempted to say the parents of those found guilty in this case ought to themselves be held accountable. Charged and sentenced somehow. But in tracking down the parents of X, we maybe would find Dad gone since conception and now in jail and Mom dead or in jail too, or else in the gutter. If the latter, to punish her would be to IMPROVE her lot in life probably, which in effect would be a reward for bad parenting.
Seems to me there are plenty of opps to hold parents accountable before their children actually start raping and killing people. Should be something prosecutable in family court (with real consequences), like "general negligent parenting" when a kid's caught stealing, graffiti'ing, drinking on the streets, etc. And a parent's defence could be things like: proving the number of parent/teacher conferences attended; number of family meals shared during the week (or an alternative collective family activity - puzzles, picnics - the things that families with good values DO); pop quizzes naming their kid's friends, first and last names; even more credit for knowing the types of families the friends come from, and how the unsavory ones are managed; etc etc etc. Subjective? It need not be actually. But. Yes, yes, I know this is all pie in the sky and every social worker on earth would get down on their knees in gratitude if this could be real. It should be real though.
> > > >>> Two high schools, a quarter mile apart. 2500 feet. One has > > > >>> problems, one does not.
> > > >>> Is it at all possible that the "problem" kids are assigned to one > > > >>> crappy school?
> > > >> It might be some of this. Are they in the same district?
> > > >> There might be something to what BK Sherman said. It's possible that > > > >> parents with the knowledge, time, energy and possibly money to be > > > >> involved with their kids would have gotten them to another school.
> > > >> I don't know about California, but here in the east, there are huge > > > >> differences in opportunity depending on what neighborhood you live > > > >> it. Of course, there are huge difference in home prices, and such, > > > >> too.
> > > >> The bottom line is that there are students who are not given much > > > >> opportunity - through no fault of their own. There is much about our > > > >> "public" school system that resembles the class-based exclusion of > > > >> private schools. "I've got mine. F___ the rest of you."
> > > >> Mick
> > > > FWIW it looks like Salesian High School is a Catholic school, so an > > > > effort needs to be made to get kids in there: > > > >http://www.salesian.com/admissions.asp
> > > Oops - wanted to add about Richmond, here is a Wiki > > > page:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richmond_High_School_%28Richmond,_Califo... > > > - it states: "the school has a predominantly "Hispanic or Latino" > > > student base, accounting for 76.43% of their total enrollment. The SARC > > > report also cites that 75% of the student base is "Socioeconomically > > > Disadvantaged", with 54% designated as "English Learners"."-
> > It is interesting taht there is a much different ethnic mix in two of > > the public high schools in the same school district.
> > Richmond is 76% latin or hispanic and El Cerrito is 24% hispanic. > > This might be a reproting problem with Wiki (they don't have the same > > format for reporting ethnicity in the two school so the numbers > > probably came from different places).
> > There might be some kind of tracking ("He's a bad ass? Send him to > > Richmond.") or possibly an ethnic self-selection. Or it jsut might > > reflect different neighborhoods in the same district, I don't know.
> > Mick
> Richmond High School is just a regular public school with a lot of > problems because of socioeconomics. Surely, there are schools > like it on the East Coast. I know of people in the San Jose area > who have used someone else's address to have their child attend > a better school.
> That's why schools have a lot to do with home values. In fact > there is a city here in the south Bay Area that is said to be very > well-known in Hong Kong because of their schools and when Chinese > move here they buy in this area - Cupertino (44% Asian). Fremont > is another city well known for its schools (45% Asian.) A friend had > an aunt and uncle in Fremont whose house back in the 90s was going > up every year more than houses in other areas. It was just an > ordinary two-story house. I asked why. She said everyone wants > to buy in Fremont because of the schools.
> As far as the kids in the Richmond rape, several actually had been > attending Richmond High but were transferred out to continuation > schools.
> Ari Abdallah Morales, 16, of San Pablo and Marcelles James Peter, 17, > of Pinole were transferred out of Richmond High to continuation high > schools. Although Peter has a shelf of city league soccer trophies, he > and the others are mediocre pupils at best, sources said. > ============
> Omega High School is one of four Necessary Small Continuation Schools > that serves the at-risk student population in the West Contra Costa > Unified School District (WCCUSD). Omega is located in the city of > Richmond in Contra Costa County, California. Omega students typically > are deficient in the credits necessary for graduation and have a > background of non-attendance. Omega provides these students with a > personalized, individualized, and self-paced instructional program > designed to fit their needs and facilitate a successful academic > education experience. Omega has three teachers, a counselor, and a > full-time on-site coordinator. > =======
> Other district continuation schools are Gompers and Kappa. > --------------- > I'm so very tempted to say the parents of those found guilty in this case > ought to themselves be held accountable. Charged and sentenced somehow. But > in tracking down the parents of X, we maybe would find Dad gone since > conception and now in jail and Mom dead or in jail too, or else in the > gutter. If the latter, to punish her would be to IMPROVE her lot in life > probably, which in effect would be a reward for bad parenting.
> Seems to me there are plenty of opps to hold parents accountable before > their children actually start raping and killing people. Should be something > prosecutable in family court (with real consequences), like "general > negligent parenting" when a kid's caught stealing, graffiti'ing, drinking on > the streets, etc. And a parent's defence could be things like: proving the > number of parent/teacher conferences attended; number of family meals shared > during the week (or an alternative collective family activity - puzzles, > picnics - the things that families with good values DO); pop quizzes naming > their kid's friends, first and last names; even more credit for knowing the > types of families the friends come from, and how the unsavory ones are > managed; etc etc etc. Subjective? It need not be actually. But. Yes, yes, I > know this is all pie in the sky and every social worker on earth would get > down on their knees in gratitude if this could be real. It should be real > though.
A nice idea, yes. But there are a lot of reports of various child protection agencies gone awry.
Part of that is a certain faddish political correctness as to what is good parenting and how to judge if a family is good.
> > > >>> Two high schools, a quarter mile apart. 2500 feet. One has > > > >>> problems, one does not.
> > > >>> Is it at all possible that the "problem" kids are assigned to one > > > >>> crappy school?
> > > >> It might be some of this. Are they in the same district?
> > > >> There might be something to what BK Sherman said. It's possible > > > >> that > > > >> parents with the knowledge, time, energy and possibly money to be > > > >> involved with their kids would have gotten them to another school.
> > > >> I don't know about California, but here in the east, there are huge > > > >> differences in opportunity depending on what neighborhood you live > > > >> it. Of course, there are huge difference in home prices, and such, > > > >> too.
> > > >> The bottom line is that there are students who are not given much > > > >> opportunity - through no fault of their own. There is much about > > > >> our > > > >> "public" school system that resembles the class-based exclusion of > > > >> private schools. "I've got mine. F___ the rest of you."
> > > >> Mick
> > > > FWIW it looks like Salesian High School is a Catholic school, so an > > > > effort needs to be made to get kids in there: > > > >http://www.salesian.com/admissions.asp
> > > Oops - wanted to add about Richmond, here is a Wiki > > > page:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richmond_High_School_%28Richmond,_Califo... > > > - it states: "the school has a predominantly "Hispanic or Latino" > > > student base, accounting for 76.43% of their total enrollment. The > > > SARC > > > report also cites that 75% of the student base is "Socioeconomically > > > Disadvantaged", with 54% designated as "English Learners"."-
> > It is interesting taht there is a much different ethnic mix in two of > > the public high schools in the same school district.
> > Richmond is 76% latin or hispanic and El Cerrito is 24% hispanic. > > This might be a reproting problem with Wiki (they don't have the same > > format for reporting ethnicity in the two school so the numbers > > probably came from different places).
> > There might be some kind of tracking ("He's a bad ass? Send him to > > Richmond.") or possibly an ethnic self-selection. Or it jsut might > > reflect different neighborhoods in the same district, I don't know.
> > Mick
> Richmond High School is just a regular public school with a lot of > problems because of socioeconomics. Surely, there are schools > like it on the East Coast. I know of people in the San Jose area > who have used someone else's address to have their child attend > a better school.
> That's why schools have a lot to do with home values. In fact > there is a city here in the south Bay Area that is said to be very > well-known in Hong Kong because of their schools and when Chinese > move here they buy in this area - Cupertino (44% Asian). Fremont > is another city well known for its schools (45% Asian.) A friend had > an aunt and uncle in Fremont whose house back in the 90s was going > up every year more than houses in other areas. It was just an > ordinary two-story house. I asked why. She said everyone wants > to buy in Fremont because of the schools.
> As far as the kids in the Richmond rape, several actually had been > attending Richmond High but were transferred out to continuation > schools.
> Ari Abdallah Morales, 16, of San Pablo and Marcelles James Peter, 17, > of Pinole were transferred out of Richmond High to continuation high > schools. Although Peter has a shelf of city league soccer trophies, he > and the others are mediocre pupils at best, sources said. > ============
> Omega High School is one of four Necessary Small Continuation Schools > that serves the at-risk student population in the West Contra Costa > Unified School District (WCCUSD). Omega is located in the city of > Richmond in Contra Costa County, California. Omega students typically > are deficient in the credits necessary for graduation and have a > background of non-attendance. Omega provides these students with a > personalized, individualized, and self-paced instructional program > designed to fit their needs and facilitate a successful academic > education experience. Omega has three teachers, a counselor, and a > full-time on-site coordinator. > =======
> Other district continuation schools are Gompers and Kappa. > --------------- > I'm so very tempted to say the parents of those found guilty in this case > ought to themselves be held accountable. Charged and sentenced somehow. > But > in tracking down the parents of X, we maybe would find Dad gone since > conception and now in jail and Mom dead or in jail too, or else in the > gutter. If the latter, to punish her would be to IMPROVE her lot in life > probably, which in effect would be a reward for bad parenting.
> Seems to me there are plenty of opps to hold parents accountable before > their children actually start raping and killing people. Should be > something > prosecutable in family court (with real consequences), like "general > negligent parenting" when a kid's caught stealing, graffiti'ing, drinking > on > the streets, etc. And a parent's defence could be things like: proving the > number of parent/teacher conferences attended; number of family meals > shared > during the week (or an alternative collective family activity - puzzles, > picnics - the things that families with good values DO); pop quizzes > naming > their kid's friends, first and last names; even more credit for knowing > the > types of families the friends come from, and how the unsavory ones are > managed; etc etc etc. Subjective? It need not be actually. But. Yes, yes, > I > know this is all pie in the sky and every social worker on earth would get > down on their knees in gratitude if this could be real. It should be real > though.
A nice idea, yes. But there are a lot of reports of various child protection agencies gone awry.
Part of that is a certain faddish political correctness as to what is good parenting and how to judge if a family is good.
Mick ------------- What do you mean by faddish political correctness influencing the judgement of good parenting? As far as I know, child protection agencies are underfunded, understaffed and overworked. And that's also true of teachers for that matter.
Collectively we don't financially or otherwise reward those (SWs, teachers) who could be so influential in shaping solutions to this ongoing problem our society - espec the US. On the other hand, personal freedom in the US informs a fundamental policy of non-interference in the family if it can be avoided, and it always has.
I'm WAY into keeping the govt out of my life. But for this I make an exception.
> > > > >>> Two high schools, a quarter mile apart. 2500 feet. One has > > > > >>> problems, one does not.
> > > > >>> Is it at all possible that the "problem" kids are assigned to one > > > > >>> crappy school?
> > > > >> It might be some of this. Are they in the same district?
> > > > >> There might be something to what BK Sherman said. It's possible > > > > >> that > > > > >> parents with the knowledge, time, energy and possibly money to be > > > > >> involved with their kids would have gotten them to another school.
> > > > >> I don't know about California, but here in the east, there are huge > > > > >> differences in opportunity depending on what neighborhood you live > > > > >> it. Of course, there are huge difference in home prices, and such, > > > > >> too.
> > > > >> The bottom line is that there are students who are not given much > > > > >> opportunity - through no fault of their own. There is much about > > > > >> our > > > > >> "public" school system that resembles the class-based exclusion of > > > > >> private schools. "I've got mine. F___ the rest of you."
> > > > >> Mick
> > > > > FWIW it looks like Salesian High School is a Catholic school, so an > > > > > effort needs to be made to get kids in there: > > > > >http://www.salesian.com/admissions.asp
> > > > Oops - wanted to add about Richmond, here is a Wiki > > > > page:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richmond_High_School_%28Richmond,_Califo... > > > > - it states: "the school has a predominantly "Hispanic or Latino" > > > > student base, accounting for 76.43% of their total enrollment. The > > > > SARC > > > > report also cites that 75% of the student base is "Socioeconomically > > > > Disadvantaged", with 54% designated as "English Learners"."-
> > > It is interesting taht there is a much different ethnic mix in two of > > > the public high schools in the same school district.
> > > Richmond is 76% latin or hispanic and El Cerrito is 24% hispanic. > > > This might be a reproting problem with Wiki (they don't have the same > > > format for reporting ethnicity in the two school so the numbers > > > probably came from different places).
> > > There might be some kind of tracking ("He's a bad ass? Send him to > > > Richmond.") or possibly an ethnic self-selection. Or it jsut might > > > reflect different neighborhoods in the same district, I don't know.
> > > Mick
> > Richmond High School is just a regular public school with a lot of > > problems because of socioeconomics. Surely, there are schools > > like it on the East Coast. I know of people in the San Jose area > > who have used someone else's address to have their child attend > > a better school.
> > That's why schools have a lot to do with home values. In fact > > there is a city here in the south Bay Area that is said to be very > > well-known in Hong Kong because of their schools and when Chinese > > move here they buy in this area - Cupertino (44% Asian). Fremont > > is another city well known for its schools (45% Asian.) A friend had > > an aunt and uncle in Fremont whose house back in the 90s was going > > up every year more than houses in other areas. It was just an > > ordinary two-story house. I asked why. She said everyone wants > > to buy in Fremont because of the schools.
> > As far as the kids in the Richmond rape, several actually had been > > attending Richmond High but were transferred out to continuation > > schools.
> > Ari Abdallah Morales, 16, of San Pablo and Marcelles James Peter, 17, > > of Pinole were transferred out of Richmond High to continuation high > > schools. Although Peter has a shelf of city league soccer trophies, he > > and the others are mediocre pupils at best, sources said. > > ============
> > Omega High School is one of four Necessary Small Continuation Schools > > that serves the at-risk student population in the West Contra Costa > > Unified School District (WCCUSD). Omega is located in the city of > > Richmond in Contra Costa County, California. Omega students typically > > are deficient in the credits necessary for graduation and have a > > background of non-attendance. Omega provides these students with a > > personalized, individualized, and self-paced instructional program > > designed to fit their needs and facilitate a successful academic > > education experience. Omega has three teachers, a counselor, and a > > full-time on-site coordinator. > > =======
> > Other district continuation schools are Gompers and Kappa. > > --------------- > > I'm so very tempted to say the parents of those found guilty in this case > > ought to themselves be held accountable. Charged and sentenced somehow. > > But > > in tracking down the parents of X, we maybe would find Dad gone since > > conception and now in jail and Mom dead or in jail too, or else in the > > gutter. If the latter, to punish her would be to IMPROVE her lot in life > > probably, which in effect would be a reward for bad parenting.
> > Seems to me there are plenty of opps to hold parents accountable before > > their children actually start raping and killing people. Should be > > something > > prosecutable in family court (with real consequences), like "general > > negligent parenting" when a kid's caught stealing, graffiti'ing, drinking > > on > > the streets, etc. And a parent's defence could be things like: proving the > > number of parent/teacher conferences attended; number of family meals > > shared > > during the week (or an alternative collective family activity - puzzles, > > picnics - the things that families with good values DO); pop quizzes > > naming > > their kid's friends, first and last names; even more credit for knowing > > the > > types of families the friends come from, and how the unsavory ones are > > managed; etc etc etc. Subjective? It need not be actually. But. Yes, yes, > > I > > know this is all pie in the sky and every social worker on earth would get > > down on their knees in gratitude if this could be real. It should be real > > though.
> A nice idea, yes. But there are a lot of reports of various child > protection agencies gone awry.
> Part of that is a certain faddish political correctness as to what is > good parenting and how to judge if a family is good.
> Mick > ------------- > What do you mean by faddish political correctness influencing the judgement > of good parenting? As far as I know, child protection agencies are > underfunded, understaffed and overworked.
Maybe things like the satanic ritual scare, a few years ago. I followed up on the "Diana Napolis" topic posted here the other day (not sure why, it was from a known super-troll). It turns out that before she was a psychotic stalker, she was a CPS worker (likely to be mentally ill then, too).
From Wiki: "Diana Louisa Napolis,[1] also known by her on-line pseudonym Karen Curio Jones[2] or more often simply Curio,[3] is an American former social worker. Between the late 1990s and 2000, Napolis posted a series of pseudonymous accusations alleging that individuals skeptical of the satanic ritual abuse moral panic were involved in a conspiracy to cover-up the sexual abuse and murder of children. The pseudonymous poster's real life identity was discovered in 2000 to be Napolis.
In 2001, she was charged with stalking film director Steven Spielberg, and in 2002 faced more charges for making death threats against actress Jennifer Love Hewitt,[4] and was committed to a state hospital until fit to stand trial. After a year in prison Napolis pleaded guilty to stalking and was released on probation."
Wiki's questionable, but Napolis is reported in places like People magazine as having stalked many Hollywood celebrities.
The thing is, she was spouting insane (literally) satanic ritual stuff for a half decade or more before she left CPS. In the early 1990's that was the witch-hunt of choice.
Today I think it would be "Daddy took a picture of me in the bath."
I don't believe in corporal punishment for kinds, myself, but I believe a kid would be far better with spanking, but fair, loving and consistent, parents than in a foster home. I beleive some CPS's would disagree with me.
Some of the CPS "abuses" I've heard of were abusive parents complaining, but some may not have been. JC, you know that those of us who read usenet can get a really warped view of those things.
I sure CPS's do a awful lot of good, but a lot of what you suggest is subjective enough to be asking for abuse.
So, I'm not sure that "more CPS" is the answer here.
I do like having parents charged and having them know that the number of parent teacher meetings they attended is a legaol issue. OTOH, I doubt the inner city teachers would like it much.
A friend who taught left in the inner city and left it. He complaints about parent meetings seemed heart-felt.
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