"R.L." <dela...@sonic.net> wrote: >These charts show which characters are together at different times in the >movie. Star Wars, LOTR, etc. Twelve Angry Men was easy.
That's pretty funky-looking stuff, but it does point out something.
I've been having a tough time with my writing, not because I can't come up with a story, or characters, or any of that stuff, but because the mechanics of putting it into files in the right order (at least for me, the way I work) are pretty overwhelming. I start writing away and then I decide to move this then add some more and move that and pretty soon I have a big mess.
Because I have some experience with software, I've set aside my WIP in order to build some tools to make the process of building a novel more "handleable". It might seem silly to some, yet another form of cat vacuuming, but it makes sense to me.
The graphics editor that I've been using for years has a "layer" concept. You can have a background layer, then some other layer like clouds, and a foreground layer, and you can show each layer or several at a time.
What I'm working toward is something similar for building a novel.
You have a plot-line. You have characters. You have character development. You have emotional buildup. And of course you have the actual text. I want to handle all these separately but together. I want to be able to *see* what I'm doing all at once, instead of having to keep half the book in my head while I'm trying to figure out where the paragraphs about such-and-so belong. I want to be able to move text around on a chapter or paragraph basis without getting mixed up and putting things in the wrong place.
> I've been having a tough time with my writing, not because I can't > come up with a story, or characters, or any of that stuff, but because > the mechanics of putting it into files in the right order (at least > for me, the way I work) are pretty overwhelming. I start writing away > and then I decide to move this then add some more and move that and > pretty soon I have a big mess.
> Because I have some experience with software, I've set aside my WIP in > order to build some tools to make the process of building a novel more > "handleable". It might seem silly to some, yet another form of cat > vacuuming, but it makes sense to me.
> The graphics editor that I've been using for years has a "layer" > concept. You can have a background layer, then some other layer like > clouds, and a foreground layer, and you can show each layer or several > at a time.
> What I'm working toward is something similar for building a novel.
> You have a plot-line. You have characters. You have character > development. You have emotional buildup. And of course you have the > actual text. I want to handle all these separately but together. I > want to be able to *see* what I'm doing all at once, instead of having > to keep half the book in my head while I'm trying to figure out where > the paragraphs about such-and-so belong. I want to be able to move > text around on a chapter or paragraph basis without getting mixed up > and putting things in the wrong place.
> At least the cat will be well-groomed, eh? <g>
There are lots of software thingys for novel writing, that would do some of that.
I once tried to use Visio, a flow chart program, for different scenes in an overland fantasy quest, mostly to get them in the right order. Like, "gets sword" has to come before "uses sword."
>> That's pretty funky-looking stuff, but it does point out something.
>It looked like a cat being vacuumed while playing with yarn.
>> I've been having a tough time with my writing, not because I can't >> come up with a story, or characters, or any of that stuff, but because >> the mechanics of putting it into files in the right order (at least >> for me, the way I work) are pretty overwhelming. I start writing away >> and then I decide to move this then add some more and move that and >> pretty soon I have a big mess.
>> Because I have some experience with software, I've set aside my WIP in >> order to build some tools to make the process of building a novel more >> "handleable". It might seem silly to some, yet another form of cat >> vacuuming, but it makes sense to me.
>> The graphics editor that I've been using for years has a "layer" >> concept. You can have a background layer, then some other layer like >> clouds, and a foreground layer, and you can show each layer or several >> at a time.
>> What I'm working toward is something similar for building a novel.
>> You have a plot-line. You have characters. You have character >> development. You have emotional buildup. And of course you have the >> actual text. I want to handle all these separately but together. I >> want to be able to *see* what I'm doing all at once, instead of having >> to keep half the book in my head while I'm trying to figure out where >> the paragraphs about such-and-so belong. I want to be able to move >> text around on a chapter or paragraph basis without getting mixed up >> and putting things in the wrong place.
>> At least the cat will be well-groomed, eh? <g>
>There are lots of software thingys for novel writing, that would do some of >that.
For example?
>I once tried to use Visio, a flow chart program, for different scenes in an >overland fantasy quest, mostly to get them in the right order. Like, "gets >sword" has to come before "uses sword."
I've used Visio (years ago now) and can't see how it would be useful aside from taking up a lot of time.
> That's pretty funky-looking stuff, but it does point out something.
> I've been having a tough time with my writing, not because I can't > come up with a story, or characters, or any of that stuff, but because > the mechanics of putting it into files in the right order (at least > for me, the way I work) are pretty overwhelming. I start writing away > and then I decide to move this then add some more and move that and > pretty soon I have a big mess.
> Because I have some experience with software, I've set aside my WIP in > order to build some tools to make the process of building a novel more > "handleable". It might seem silly to some, yet another form of cat > vacuuming, but it makes sense to me.
> The graphics editor that I've been using for years has a "layer" > concept. You can have a background layer, then some other layer like > clouds, and a foreground layer, and you can show each layer or several > at a time.
> What I'm working toward is something similar for building a novel.
> You have a plot-line. You have characters. You have character > development. You have emotional buildup. And of course you have the > actual text. I want to handle all these separately but together. I > want to be able to *see* what I'm doing all at once, instead of having > to keep half the book in my head while I'm trying to figure out where > the paragraphs about such-and-so belong. I want to be able to move > text around on a chapter or paragraph basis without getting mixed up > and putting things in the wrong place.
> At least the cat will be well-groomed, eh? <g>
I have found that a simple whiteboard is enough, if it is large. Many different colors of marker.
>> That's pretty funky-looking stuff, but it does point out something.
>> I've been having a tough time with my writing, not because I can't >> come up with a story, or characters, or any of that stuff, but because >> the mechanics of putting it into files in the right order (at least >> for me, the way I work) are pretty overwhelming. I start writing away >> and then I decide to move this then add some more and move that and >> pretty soon I have a big mess.
>> Because I have some experience with software, I've set aside my WIP in >> order to build some tools to make the process of building a novel more >> "handleable". It might seem silly to some, yet another form of cat >> vacuuming, but it makes sense to me.
>> The graphics editor that I've been using for years has a "layer" >> concept. You can have a background layer, then some other layer like >> clouds, and a foreground layer, and you can show each layer or several >> at a time.
>> What I'm working toward is something similar for building a novel.
>> You have a plot-line. You have characters. You have character >> development. You have emotional buildup. And of course you have the >> actual text. I want to handle all these separately but together. I >> want to be able to *see* what I'm doing all at once, instead of having >> to keep half the book in my head while I'm trying to figure out where >> the paragraphs about such-and-so belong. I want to be able to move >> text around on a chapter or paragraph basis without getting mixed up >> and putting things in the wrong place.
>> At least the cat will be well-groomed, eh? <g>
>I have found that a simple whiteboard is enough, if it is large. Many >different colors of marker.
>Brenda
I'm sure that could work. I used to use whiteboards for designing software. I only needed a couple dozen of them for each project. Damned janitor was always cleaning up after me at night though.
Peter Knutsen <pe...@sagatafl.invalid> wrote: >Brenda Clough wrote: >> I have found that a simple whiteboard is enough, if it is large. Many >> different colors of marker.
>For the last many years, I've wanted a whiteboard programme for my computer.
Without some kind of pen-based input tablet, what use would it be, how would it be better than for example Visio? And with a pen-based input tablet, you might need an eraser, or a resizer, when you found out the whole thing just wasn't more than a small bit of it.
Eric Ammadon <n...@spam.thankee> wrote: > Without some kind of pen-based input tablet, what use would it be, how > would it be better than for example Visio? And with a pen-based input > tablet, you might need an eraser, or a resizer, when you found out the > whole thing just wasn't more than a small bit of it.
To erase, you flip your stylus over and rub with the opposite end.
On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 05:45:46 -0700, Eric Ammadon wrote: > "R.L." <dela...@sonic.net> wrote:
/snip/
>>I once tried to use Visio, a flow chart program, for different scenes in an >>overland fantasy quest, mostly to get them in the right order. Like, "gets >>sword" has to come before "uses sword."
> I've used Visio (years ago now) and can't see how it would be useful > aside from taking up a lot of time.
As I said, the flow chart was useful for seeing which events depend on which previous events. Also iirc it was easy to drag the boxes or whatever you call them around.
Another tool is a spreadsheet. Obviously as a timetable, but a few people use one row per scene as a 'scene sheet'. I used Column A for time/weather, Column B for which characters were in the scene, Column C for whether the macguffin appeared and how it changed, etc.
This made it easy to, eg, see the macguffin's progress by sorting by Column C (then by A). Also it's easy to select the contents of a cell to move elsewhere.
I wanted to do actual usable text in the spreadsheet. Excel could take plenty of text, but Enter exited the cell, and using Ctl-Enter was too much for me. ;-/
>> Without some kind of pen-based input tablet, what use would it be, how >> would it be better than for example Visio? And with a pen-based input >> tablet, you might need an eraser, or a resizer, when you found out the >> whole thing just wasn't more than a small bit of it.
>To erase, you flip your stylus over and rub with the opposite end.
I'll just keep on vacuuming my cat until it learns how to keep the place nice and tidy.
R.L. wrote: > On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 05:45:46 -0700, Eric Ammadon wrote: >> "R.L." <dela...@sonic.net> wrote: > /snip/
>>> I once tried to use Visio, a flow chart program, for different scenes in an >>> overland fantasy quest, mostly to get them in the right order. Like, "gets >>> sword" has to come before "uses sword." >> I've used Visio (years ago now) and can't see how it would be useful >> aside from taking up a lot of time.
> As I said, the flow chart was useful for seeing which events depend on > which previous events. Also iirc it was easy to drag the boxes or whatever > you call them around.
> Another tool is a spreadsheet. Obviously as a timetable, but a few people > use one row per scene as a 'scene sheet'. I used Column A for time/weather, > Column B for which characters were in the scene, Column C for whether the > macguffin appeared and how it changed, etc.
> This made it easy to, eg, see the macguffin's progress by sorting by Column > C (then by A). Also it's easy to select the contents of a cell to move > elsewhere.
> I wanted to do actual usable text in the spreadsheet. Excel could take > plenty of text, but Enter exited the cell, and using Ctl-Enter was too much > for me. ;-/
> R.L.
Excel is also useful. You can make charts for all the characters, with columns: Favorite Weapon, Origin/species, Favorite Epithet. This would be particularly helpful in multivolume fantasy epics.
Brenda Clough <Bre...@sff.net> wrote: > Excel is also useful. You can make charts for all the characters, with > columns: Favorite Weapon, Origin/species, Favorite Epithet. This would > be particularly helpful in multivolume fantasy epics.
I use mysql for that sort of thing.
Also to record my word counts, to build timelines, to organize my production queue, and to keep track of associated images of various sorts.
I like mysql, because it gets along so nicely with web applications.
On Wed, 4 Nov 2009 09:33:09 -0500, Michelle Bottorff wrote: > Brenda Clough <Bre...@sff.net> wrote:
>> Excel is also useful. You can make charts for all the characters, with >> columns: Favorite Weapon, Origin/species, Favorite Epithet. This would >> be particularly helpful in multivolume fantasy epics.
> I use mysql for that sort of thing.
> Also to record my word counts, to build timelines, to organize my > production queue, and to keep track of associated images of various > sorts.
> I like mysql, because it gets along so nicely with web applications.
Can you write, like, paragraphs in it? What happens when you hit Enter?
R.L. <see-...@no-spams.coms> wrote: > Can you write, like, paragraphs in it?
Yes, of course. Mysql is the standard database used in web applications, and so is used to store all the posts made in popular blogging software programs like wordpress.
Lots and lots and lots of people have stored entire stories in mysql, they just didn't know it, because they never bothered to inquire how their blogging software works. Some of them are vaguely aware that a database is involved. :)
>What happens when you hit Enter?
Well, using my mysql "graphic interface front end" program, Navicat (which I paid real money for because I use mysql so extensively that shelling out for an interface I really liked seemed worth it)...
The cursor goes down to the next line of the "text box". (Which I double-clicked to open because it's easier to edit large chunks of text in a text box view mode than in a table cell view mode.)
I've got no fancy wordprocessing functions to do italics or change fonts or anything like that though. For that you would need to use some kind of markup.... like, say, html.
But it all depends on your front end.
Mysql is free, but it's also JUST an electronic information storage/retrieval system. It's designed to make machines happy, and it's not user-friendly. If you can't code your own task specific interface (which is what I do when building webpages, and it is that capability that makes me and other web developers like it so much), then you're stuck with either a command line, or whatever other interface to the database system you can find already made.
If you're using a command line front end (shudder!), then I assume when you hit Enter, it attempts to execute your query statement. Which wouldn't all be there yet, in the situation you describe, and therefore mysql would send back an error message. (You can still write paragraphs using a command line front end --although I can't imagine why you would *want* to-- but you would have to put carriage return codes into it rather than just hitting Enter.)
On the other hand, a great many of the web applications that use mysql to achieve specific ends, like, say, blogging, not only allow you to press Enter when you want a carriage return but they also allow a graphic display of italics, bold, etc, which is still done using markup, but it happens "under the hood".
There are a number of interfaces out there, and they all have different capabilities. Some of them are free.
My interface of choice for general purpose access to my databases, most data entry, and for "administration" (building the databases, creating new tables, syncing the data between my home computer and my webserver, etc.), Navicat, runs about $130. I'm not sure how that compares with end user spreadsheet programs, either in features or price, because I got frustrated with the limitations of being an "end user" really early on in the process. I could find no "end user" information management application that let me display, for example, timeline/event information in the form of calenders with nine day weeks, or 499 day years, and so on and so forth. :(
On Thu, 5 Nov 2009 10:02:45 -0500, Michelle Bottorff wrote: > R.L. <see-...@no-spams.coms> wrote:
>> Can you write, like, paragraphs in it?
> Yes, of course. > Mysql is the standard database used in web applications, and so is used > to store all the posts made in popular blogging software programs like > wordpress.
> Lots and lots and lots of people have stored entire stories in mysql, > they just didn't know it, because they never bothered to inquire how > their blogging software works. Some of them are vaguely aware that a > database is involved. :)
>>What happens when you hit Enter?
> Well, using my mysql "graphic interface front end" program, Navicat > (which I paid real money for because I use mysql so extensively that > shelling out for an interface I really liked seemed worth it)...
> The cursor goes down to the next line of the "text box". (Which I > double-clicked to open because it's easier to edit large chunks of text > in a text box view mode than in a table cell view mode.)
> I've got no fancy wordprocessing functions to do italics or change fonts > or anything like that though. For that you would need to use some kind > of markup.... like, say, html.
> But it all depends on your front end.
> Mysql is free, but it's also JUST an electronic information > storage/retrieval system. It's designed to make machines happy, and > it's not user-friendly. If you can't code your own task specific > interface (which is what I do when building webpages, and it is that > capability that makes me and other web developers like it so much), then > you're stuck with either a command line, or whatever other interface to > the database system you can find already made.
> If you're using a command line front end (shudder!), then I assume when > you hit Enter, it attempts to execute your query statement. Which > wouldn't all be there yet, in the situation you describe, and therefore > mysql would send back an error message. (You can still write paragraphs > using a command line front end --although I can't imagine why you would > *want* to-- but you would have to put carriage return codes into it > rather than just hitting Enter.)
> On the other hand, a great many of the web applications that use mysql > to achieve specific ends, like, say, blogging, not only allow you to > press Enter when you want a carriage return but they also allow a > graphic display of italics, bold, etc, which is still done using markup, > but it happens "under the hood".
> There are a number of interfaces out there, and they all have different > capabilities. Some of them are free.
> My interface of choice for general purpose access to my databases, most > data entry, and for "administration" (building the databases, creating > new tables, syncing the data between my home computer and my webserver, > etc.), Navicat, runs about $130. I'm not sure how that compares with > end user spreadsheet programs, either in features or price, because I > got frustrated with the limitations of being an "end user" really early > on in the process. I could find no "end user" information management > application that let me display, for example, timeline/event information > in the form of calenders with nine day weeks, or 499 day years, and so > on and so forth. :(
R.L. <dela...@sonic.net> wrote: > THanks, Michelle. But I'm afraid mysql sounds WAY over my head.
Why should it be over your head, but not mine?
I wasn't trained for this, and I never took any classes. I wanted to be able to do x, so I went out and hunted up what tools there were for doing x, and then I picked a few to try that sounded likely, downloaded them, and learned to use them by hunting up tutorials and examples on the web.
Either I'm some kind of genius, or any reasonably intelligent person can learn this stuff.
Personally, I'm inclined to believe the latter.
Not that there is any particular reason why you should learn mysql if you don't want to. But I just don't grok why, when I try explain how I am achieving the cool things I am achieving, I get people saying the rough equivilent of "oh, I could never do that!". Of course you can't if you're scared off without even giving it a try.
> But I just don't grok why, when I try explain how I am > achieving the cool things I am achieving, I get people > saying the rough equivilent of "oh, I could never do > that!". Of course you can't if you're scared off without > even giving it a try. > ...Maybe I just explain things poorly.
I doubt it. I suspect that you're simply more adventurous intellectually than many.
> I wasn't trained for this, and I never took any classes. I wanted to be > able to do x, so I went out and hunted up what tools there were for > doing x, and then I picked a few to try that sounded likely, downloaded > them, and learned to use them by hunting up tutorials and examples on > the web.
> Either I'm some kind of genius, or any reasonably intelligent person can > learn this stuff.
> Personally, I'm inclined to believe the latter.
> Not that there is any particular reason why you should learn mysql if > you don't want to. But I just don't grok why, when I try explain how I > am achieving the cool things I am achieving, I get people saying the > rough equivilent of "oh, I could never do that!". Of course you can't > if you're scared off without even giving it a try.
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