rec.arts.sf.composition Google Group

Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

2009-11-21T22:17:55Z

The value of your post, aside from attempting to boost your flaccid
ego, would be precisely what? Think before answering, you wouldn't
want to be considered unpleasant, ignorant, thoughtless, and rude
(oops, too late!)

Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

2009-11-21T21:58:07Z

On Sat, 21 Nov 2009 13:56:41 -0700, Eric Ammadon
<n...@spam.thankee> wrote in
<news:7pkgg5h28ojfh9hv0emab8fqnbntmg8kn3@4ax.com> in
rec.arts.sf.composition:
[...]
Yours is a common naive view of the matter, but obviously
quite a few people disagree with you. Of course it's also
true that quite a few disagree with Gerry. Some disagree

Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

2009-11-21T21:31:31Z

Show by having one of the most powerful and experienced beings in the
world be unable to accomplish something, and describe the failure in
terms that show why it can't be done.

Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

2009-11-21T21:04:52Z

Tell that to the retarded and they'll likely giggle.
Sorry Peter, but I find that confusing.
If "everyone has some amount of magic talent" why does it take longer
for some to learn to use it than others?
If you were saying that everyone has equal access to the power that
makes magic tick but some have more talent for using it than others

Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

2009-11-21T21:01:39Z

Show how? Just because one character cannot accomplish some particular
magic feat, it doesn't prove someone with more talent, or more learnnig,
or both in synergy, cannot.

Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

2009-11-21T20:56:41Z

In a strictly deterministic universe there is no room for free-will.
Compatabilism vs incompatabilism seems to me like a matter of wasting
time debating the way something is weasel-worded.
Either an individual has free-will or not, and in a strictly
deterministic universe the individual is no more than a tiny cog in a

Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

2009-11-21T20:57:08Z

Not 100% on target.
Everyone can learn physics, given sufficient time and effort, in our
world, because everyone has a minimum of intelligence.
Same way in Ärth, everyone has some amount of magic talent, but for some
it would take an absurdly long period of time to learn it to a useful level.

Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

2009-11-21T19:09:18Z

In article <4b07dcf3$0$282$14726...@news. sunsite.dk>,
On the other hand, among the things that generate a plot are the limits
on magic. Your characters have to do difficult X because simple Y is
obviously impossible.
Central to the plot of _Salamander_ is the fact that magic is weak, that
a fire mage can light a candle, but if he wants to start a forest fire

Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

2009-11-21T18:14:45Z

On Sat, 21 Nov 2009 10:48:15 -0700, Eric Ammadon
<n...@spam.thankee> wrote in
<news:748gg5hus6021ff4phi42hsljluaubdh90@4ax.com> in
rec.arts.sf.composition:
[...]
I've better ways to waste my time. Besides, anyone who uses
Encarta deserves what he gets.
[...]
And you show a similar level of misunderstanding when you

Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

2009-11-21T17:48:15Z

Yes, and note that "consequent on" does not necessarily mean "causally
NECESSITATED", "INEVITABLE consequence", etc., it leaves a bit of
wiggle-room.
Please do let Microsoft know your opinion.
There are many cases that can be made, and philosophers have busied
themselves about making them since the beginning of philosophy. We're

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2009-11-21T17:16:50Z

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Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

2009-11-21T17:09:25Z

On Sat, 21 Nov 2009 13:28:41 +0100, Peter Knutsen
<pe...@sagatafl.invalid> wrote in
<news:4b07dcf3$0$282$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> in
rec.arts.sf.composition:
There is of course a vast middle ground between magic with
well-understood rules and magic that can do whatever the
plot needs.
[...]
Brian

Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

2009-11-21T17:07:58Z

On Sat, 21 Nov 2009 05:51:07 -0700, Eric Ammadon
<n...@spam.thankee> wrote in
<news:cumfg5taeo0gkv89uiskt95qr5nnca2us2@4ax.com> in
rec.arts.sf.composition:
[...]
Note that this is not significantly different from Gerry's
definition.
This one is simply incorrect.
'Consequent on' does not mean 'affected by'. And there is

Re: Consequences of Homosexual Marriage

2009-11-21T17:05:39Z

On Sat, 21 Nov 2009 16:03:32 GMT,
[ ... ]
The average house cat born blind and deaf could outperform that
submoronic bigot in the learning department.
And Taylor is too DUMB and too DISHONEST to ADMIT that!
Thus being one of Usenet's biggest DOLTS -- and a constant
earner of •• OCR •• Points. Which serve to DESTROY his own

Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

2009-11-21T17:01:39Z

A lot of museums use beetles for defleshing skeletons so they should have
some basic ideas about length of time, etc. In fact, beetles might be less
subject to squishing; on the other hand, museums keep them in drawers and
like that, so who knows?
In a mystery I read, the guy boiled the bones to get them clean, but I

Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

2009-11-21T16:51:48Z

Yeah, magic can't solve all the problems, which come to think of it, makes
magic a bit like technology--except in some of the sf pulps.

Re: What type of equine to use when?

2009-11-21T16:47:51Z

Another one I thought of, though again not exactly what you want, is
_Elephants in the Living Room, Bears in the Canoe_. It's about a couple
who, among other things, adopted an elephant and raised it in the house
until it got too big. There is a photo of the elephant in a rocking chair.
Or your librarian(s) lack imagination.

Re: Consequences of Homosexual Marriage

2009-11-21T16:06:14Z

news:200911202151008930-blackwaterevangelist@testlandorg...
The voters in Washington State do not agree with you :-)

Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

2009-11-21T14:22:44Z

Show that there are some things magic can't do. I actually quite
deliberately put things like that into the fantasy novel I wrote recently.

Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

2009-11-21T13:01:44Z

Point taken.
I think there is some merit in your original statement (even though my
bear won't dance the hula).
The bear has some minimal sensitivity to dancing, but so minimal that
it cannot ever become proficient.
I'd expect that in your Arth setting, everyone has some sensitivity to
that which allows magic to be done, but for most people it disappears

Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

2009-11-21T12:51:07Z

You appear not to have understood them (no blame).
"Determinism is roughly defined as the view that all current and
future events are causally necessitated by past events combined with
the laws of nature." [link]
"The philosophical doctrine that every state of affairs, including

Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

2009-11-21T12:51:41Z

Yes, that's one possibility. Thanks!
But how much time would it take?
He can use spells, or have a friend use spells, to make the maggots eat
his flesh faster, but that would always be a sort of multiplier of the
normal speed at which natural maggots eat flesh, and I have no idea
whether we're talking a single day, or more like several weeks, for a

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2009-11-21T12:48:45Z

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Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

2009-11-21T12:41:44Z

As a reader, how can I know that there are rules? Because I *need* to
know. I need to know that the author isn't playing tennis without a net.

Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

2009-11-21T12:32:51Z

You didn't get it wrong.

Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

2009-11-21T12:28:41Z

Magic that can do whatever the plot needs done is, from where I'm
sitting, utterly indistinguishable from the author playing tennis
without a net.
If I can't see the net, it's probably because there isn't one.

Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

2009-11-21T12:27:18Z

You seem to have overlooked the key phrase or element of the sentence:
"the same way".

Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

2009-11-21T12:03:39Z

In article <si8fg5ta6vmicbb1suplv1bcohait 2i...@4ax.com>,
n...@spam.thankee says...
I did read the words. Meaningless questions cannot legitimately be
answered with a "yes" or a "no". A classic example is: "If God is
omnipotent, can he make a stone so heavy he can't lift it?" Yours is
similarly grounded in misconception.

Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

2009-11-21T08:35:24Z

Try actually reading the words. Asnwer "yes" or "no".
Provide a definition of determinism that allows free-will as a
causitive rather than a consequence.

Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

2009-11-21T07:37:26Z

On Fri, 20 Nov 2009 15:21:42 +0000 (UTC), Remus Shepherd
There are lots of philosophies that claim to be "realist" By and
large, the less realist they are, the more they are apt to claim it.
"Moderate realism" actually is realist. The other varieties of
"realism" vary from arguably realist to flagrantly anti realist and

Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

2009-11-21T07:31:12Z

On Fri, 20 Nov 2009 14:45:44 +0000 (UTC), Remus Shepherd
Exactly so.
Starting with doctrine that is plausible, but subtly
wrong, philosophers proceed with the utmost rigor and
strict logical consistency into ever more blatant
absurdity. If you start with a contradiction, you can
prove anything.

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2009-11-21T07:25:27Z

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Re: Useful Shadow Magic spells?

2009-11-21T07:24:37Z

James A. Donald:
Gerry Quinn
Sir Thomas Raffles proposed to destroy the city of
Malacca and get rid of its former inhabitants, turning
the area permanently into a wilderness. He changed his
mind as result of solicitations by the inhabitants,
which solicitations very likely involved a gigantic
bribe.

Re: Useful Shadow Magic spells?

2009-11-21T05:33:33Z

James A. Donald:
Gerry Quinn
Every "rape" Cugel commits was legal when I was a kid, and legal at
the time Jack Vance first published the "dying earth" stories. You are
judging Cugel by an official state imposed morality that no one really
believes, and no one really practices. Cugel's behavior is righteous

Re: Consequences of Homosexual Marriage

2009-11-21T04:25:35Z

On Fri, 20 Nov 2009 21:51:00 -0500,
Submoronic Bigot, Bill Taylor (aka "BE-VA")

36,000 of them in California, alone, proved you WRONG, last year.
<remaining ignorant hate-swill flushed>

Re: Consequences of Homosexual Marriage

2009-11-21T04:01:31Z

And you know this because you've been appointed a representative?

Re: Consequences of Homosexual Marriage

2009-11-21T03:13:02Z

Newsgroup -- alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject - Consequences of Homosexual Marriage
Pay attention, boy!

Re: Consequences of Homosexual Marriage

2009-11-21T03:10:56Z

Bippy, have you noticed what the subject of this thread and the header
of this newsgroup relates to?
If you want to kill turkeys you go where the turkeys are.

Re: Consequences of Homosexual Marriage

2009-11-21T02:51:00Z

Homosexuals couldn't care less about marriage as an institution . Your
objective is to de-emphasize marriage and then put another thread in
the web of lies that you are desperately using to support your claim of
being a legitimate part of the scheme of mankind - YOU ARE NOT AND YOU
NEVER WILL BE. Regardless of how much success you may have in your

Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

2009-11-21T02:22:12Z

On Fri, 20 Nov 2009 12:21:43 -0800, Alma Hromic Deckert
<angh...@vaxer.net> wrote in
<news:ncudg59ud7c6sbdt7ipadt5s7hobsq2p90@4ax.com> in
rec.arts.sf.composition:
[...]
Physical exhaustion makes it almost impossible for me to get
to sleep.
[...]
For me it was never easy to come by, and it gets worse the

Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

2009-11-21T01:36:24Z

In article <v4odg511vjjk5fn988s116s99d1cc lt...@4ax.com>,
n...@spam.thankee says...
Your question is meaningless, because it includes a false assertion;
namely that determinism is incompatible with free will.
And I see you haven't answered mine.
[As to whether humans are in fact driven entirely by their current

Re: What type of equine to use when?

2009-11-20T23:54:33Z

Typing 'elephant' into the search engine for texts at archive.org gave a
bunch of results, a few of which looked like they might be helpful.

Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

2009-11-20T20:21:43Z

On Fri, 20 Nov 2009 13:39:09 -0500, mbotto...@lshelby.com (Michelle
Me too. Particluarly if I've a story percolating in my brain that
won't let me "switch off" properly, or because there's a huge storm
outside and I"m worried for my trees, or my cat decides to be
obnoxious and claw me every time I shift as I'm drifting off to sleep

Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

2009-11-20T18:39:09Z

Unless I have driven myself into absolute exhaustion, it can take me
hours to get to sleep.

Re: What type of equine to use when?

2009-11-20T18:39:09Z

My library does not have a copy of either of these, alas!
The only books they have on elephants at all, as far as I can tell, are
in the juvenile section.
Adults, apparently, are not supposed to be interested in elephants.
... I have no objection to being grown up, I only object to what other
people consider appropriate behavior for a person my age.

Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

2009-11-20T18:34:34Z

Answer yes or no: Are humans complex mechanisms driven solely by
genetics and environment thus devoid of free-will?

Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

2009-11-20T18:31:35Z

I didn't understand what you wrote at all (which might actually lend
it some credence in certain circles).
There are (at least) two meanings for 'random'. One meaning is
"caused by factors too subtle to be knowable", and that's a usage I
can go along with. Another meaning is "totally without cause", which

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rec.arts.sf.composition Google Group

Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

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Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

Re: Consequences of Homosexual Marriage

Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

Re: What type of equine to use when?

Re: Consequences of Homosexual Marriage

Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

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Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

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Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

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Re: Useful Shadow Magic spells?

Re: Useful Shadow Magic spells?

Re: Consequences of Homosexual Marriage

Re: Consequences of Homosexual Marriage

Re: Consequences of Homosexual Marriage

Re: Consequences of Homosexual Marriage

Re: Consequences of Homosexual Marriage

Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

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