rec.arts.sf.composition Google Group

Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

n...@spam.thankee (Eric Ammadon) — Sat, 21 Nov 2009 12:51:07 UT

You appear not to have understood them (no blame).
"Determinism is roughly defined as the view that all current and
future events are causally necessitated by past events combined with
the laws of nature." [link]
"The philosophical doctrine that every state of affairs, including

Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

pe...@sagatafl.invalid (Peter Knutsen) — Sat, 21 Nov 2009 12:51:41 UT

Yes, that's one possibility. Thanks!
But how much time would it take?
He can use spells, or have a friend use spells, to make the maggots eat
his flesh faster, but that would always be a sort of multiplier of the
normal speed at which natural maggots eat flesh, and I have no idea
whether we're talking a single day, or more like several weeks, for a

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Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

pe...@sagatafl.invalid (Peter Knutsen) — Sat, 21 Nov 2009 12:41:44 UT

As a reader, how can I know that there are rules? Because I *need* to
know. I need to know that the author isn't playing tennis without a net.

Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

pe...@sagatafl.invalid (Peter Knutsen) — Sat, 21 Nov 2009 12:32:51 UT

You didn't get it wrong.

Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

pe...@sagatafl.invalid (Peter Knutsen) — Sat, 21 Nov 2009 12:28:41 UT

Magic that can do whatever the plot needs done is, from where I'm
sitting, utterly indistinguishable from the author playing tennis
without a net.
If I can't see the net, it's probably because there isn't one.

Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

pe...@sagatafl.invalid (Peter Knutsen) — Sat, 21 Nov 2009 12:27:18 UT

You seem to have overlooked the key phrase or element of the sentence:
"the same way".

Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

ger...@indigo.ie (Gerry Quinn) — Sat, 21 Nov 2009 12:03:39 UT

In article <si8fg5ta6vmicbb1suplv1bcohait 2i...@4ax.com>,
n...@spam.thankee says...
I did read the words. Meaningless questions cannot legitimately be
answered with a "yes" or a "no". A classic example is: "If God is
omnipotent, can he make a stone so heavy he can't lift it?" Yours is
similarly grounded in misconception.

Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

n...@spam.thankee (Eric Ammadon) — Sat, 21 Nov 2009 08:35:24 UT

Try actually reading the words. Asnwer "yes" or "no".
Provide a definition of determinism that allows free-will as a
causitive rather than a consequence.

Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

jam...@echeque.com (James A. Donald) — Sat, 21 Nov 2009 07:37:26 UT

On Fri, 20 Nov 2009 15:21:42 +0000 (UTC), Remus Shepherd
There are lots of philosophies that claim to be "realist" By and
large, the less realist they are, the more they are apt to claim it.
"Moderate realism" actually is realist. The other varieties of
"realism" vary from arguably realist to flagrantly anti realist and

Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

jam...@echeque.com (James A. Donald) — Sat, 21 Nov 2009 07:31:12 UT

On Fri, 20 Nov 2009 14:45:44 +0000 (UTC), Remus Shepherd
Exactly so.
Starting with doctrine that is plausible, but subtly
wrong, philosophers proceed with the utmost rigor and
strict logical consistency into ever more blatant
absurdity. If you start with a contradiction, you can
prove anything.

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Re: Useful Shadow Magic spells?

jam...@echeque.com (James A. Donald) — Sat, 21 Nov 2009 07:24:37 UT

James A. Donald:
Gerry Quinn
Sir Thomas Raffles proposed to destroy the city of
Malacca and get rid of its former inhabitants, turning
the area permanently into a wilderness. He changed his
mind as result of solicitations by the inhabitants,
which solicitations very likely involved a gigantic
bribe.

Re: Useful Shadow Magic spells?

jam...@echeque.com (James A. Donald) — Sat, 21 Nov 2009 05:33:33 UT

James A. Donald:
Gerry Quinn
Every "rape" Cugel commits was legal when I was a kid, and legal at
the time Jack Vance first published the "dying earth" stories. You are
judging Cugel by an official state imposed morality that no one really
believes, and no one really practices. Cugel's behavior is righteous

Re: Consequences of Homosexual Marriage

Sat, 21 Nov 2009 04:25:35 UT

On Fri, 20 Nov 2009 21:51:00 -0500,
Submoronic Bigot, Bill Taylor (aka "BE-VA")

36,000 of them in California, alone, proved you WRONG, last year.
<remaining ignorant hate-swill flushed>

Re: Consequences of Homosexual Marriage

rfisc...@sonic.net (Ray Fischer) — Sat, 21 Nov 2009 04:01:31 UT

And you know this because you've been appointed a representative?

Re: Consequences of Homosexual Marriage

blackwater-evangel...@testland.org (BE-VA) — Sat, 21 Nov 2009 03:13:02 UT

Newsgroup -- alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject - Consequences of Homosexual Marriage
Pay attention, boy!

Re: Consequences of Homosexual Marriage

blackwater-evangel...@testland.org (BE-VA) — Sat, 21 Nov 2009 03:10:56 UT

Bippy, have you noticed what the subject of this thread and the header
of this newsgroup relates to?
If you want to kill turkeys you go where the turkeys are.

Re: Consequences of Homosexual Marriage

blackwater-evangel...@testland.org (BE-VA) — Sat, 21 Nov 2009 02:51:00 UT

Homosexuals couldn't care less about marriage as an institution . Your
objective is to de-emphasize marriage and then put another thread in
the web of lies that you are desperately using to support your claim of
being a legitimate part of the scheme of mankind - YOU ARE NOT AND YOU
NEVER WILL BE. Regardless of how much success you may have in your

Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

b.sc...@csuohio.edu (Brian M. Scott) — Sat, 21 Nov 2009 02:22:12 UT

On Fri, 20 Nov 2009 12:21:43 -0800, Alma Hromic Deckert
<angh...@vaxer.net> wrote in
<news:ncudg59ud7c6sbdt7ipadt5s7hobsq2p90@4ax.com> in
rec.arts.sf.composition:
[...]
Physical exhaustion makes it almost impossible for me to get
to sleep.
[...]
For me it was never easy to come by, and it gets worse the

Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

ger...@indigo.ie (Gerry Quinn) — Sat, 21 Nov 2009 01:36:24 UT

In article <v4odg511vjjk5fn988s116s99d1cc lt...@4ax.com>,
n...@spam.thankee says...
Your question is meaningless, because it includes a false assertion;
namely that determinism is incompatible with free will.
And I see you haven't answered mine.
[As to whether humans are in fact driven entirely by their current

Re: What type of equine to use when?

sh...@westnet.com (Shana Rosenfeld) — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 23:54:33 UT

Typing 'elephant' into the search engine for texts at archive.org gave a
bunch of results, a few of which looked like they might be helpful.

Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

angh...@vaxer.net (Alma Hromic Deckert) — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 20:21:43 UT

On Fri, 20 Nov 2009 13:39:09 -0500, mbotto...@lshelby.com (Michelle
Me too. Particluarly if I've a story percolating in my brain that
won't let me "switch off" properly, or because there's a huge storm
outside and I"m worried for my trees, or my cat decides to be
obnoxious and claw me every time I shift as I'm drifting off to sleep

Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

mbotto...@lshelby.com (Michelle Bottorff) — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 18:39:09 UT

Unless I have driven myself into absolute exhaustion, it can take me
hours to get to sleep.

Re: What type of equine to use when?

mbotto...@lshelby.com (Michelle Bottorff) — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 18:39:09 UT

My library does not have a copy of either of these, alas!
The only books they have on elephants at all, as far as I can tell, are
in the juvenile section.
Adults, apparently, are not supposed to be interested in elephants.
... I have no objection to being grown up, I only object to what other
people consider appropriate behavior for a person my age.

Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

n...@spam.thankee (Eric Ammadon) — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 18:34:34 UT

Answer yes or no: Are humans complex mechanisms driven solely by
genetics and environment thus devoid of free-will?

Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

n...@spam.thankee (Eric Ammadon) — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 18:31:35 UT

I didn't understand what you wrote at all (which might actually lend
it some credence in certain circles).
There are (at least) two meanings for 'random'. One meaning is
"caused by factors too subtle to be knowable", and that's a usage I
can go along with. Another meaning is "totally without cause", which

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Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

n...@spam.thankee (Eric Ammadon) — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 18:01:27 UT

...and all without the aid of a bong! <g>

Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

n...@spam.thankee (Eric Ammadon) — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 17:59:59 UT

That's patently ridiculous, everyone with minimal intelligence and
understanding recognizes that it's the phlogiston that burns!
</tongue_in_cheek>
"Sensual vicar"? Lordy, that sounds more applicable to pornography
than philsophy. <g>

Re: What type of equine to use when?

sueb...@execpc.com (Suzanne Blom) — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 17:48:09 UT

Alas, I have nothing about domesticated elephants, but _Among the Elephants_
by Iain and Oria Douglas-Hamilton is a pretty good look at African elephants
in their native haunts. There is also somewhere out there a CD of elephant
music, that is, music created and played by elephants.

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Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

bill.re...@taylorandfrancis.com (Will in New Haven) — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 15:51:34 UT

There are many ways to waste the time we have.

Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

re...@panix.com (Remus Shepherd) — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 15:41:49 UT

In the philosophy we're discussing, anything that can be experienced
is an object.
You may get the sense that philosophy does not adhere to actual physics
or to dictionary definitions. :) That's what makes it so hard to read,
in my opinion. It's like studying stoner lingo run through a translator

Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

re...@panix.com (Remus Shepherd) — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 15:21:42 UT

Those are determinists; we're not talking about them. ;) Um, let's
see. As I understand it, realism is a form of dualism, in which the
universe is described as both formed of matter and affected by consciousness.
Determinists are materialists and oppose dualism, although dualists can
borrow things from materialism to fill in the material part of their dual

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Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

bill.re...@taylorandfrancis.com (Will in New Haven) — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 14:57:07 UT

Fire is not an object; fire is a process.

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Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

re...@panix.com (Remus Shepherd) — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 14:45:44 UT

Interesting example you give there. In fact, one of the examples
of speculative realism given in Wikipedia is that fire does *not*
burn an object, because the properties of objects are immutable by
other objects. Instead, the fire gives instructions to a 'sensual
vicar' -- a thing that is not an object and thus can change the

Re: Consequences of Homosexual Marriage

Fri, 20 Nov 2009 14:28:21 UT

On Fri, 20 Nov 2009 05:11:15 -0700,
What's really NEAT about all of this is that NO FACTS even EXIST
that can support the stances of the anti-same-sex marriage bigots.
Thus, all they can do is:
(1) Make total FOOLS of themselves to all intelligent people.
(2) CON a lot of lower-intellect people into siding with them

Re: Consequences of Homosexual Marriage

Fri, 20 Nov 2009 14:23:16 UT

On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 23:46:27 -0600,

I missed that, unfortunately. It must have been quite comical!
The way I see it, ANY person who whies about OTHER people's marriages,
whether same-sex or not, are automatically classifiable as a bone-ignorant,
lowlife busybody who has NO life. Any such person would be a surprise to

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Re: Useful Shadow Magic spells?

ger...@indigo.ie (Gerry Quinn) — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 14:00:53 UT

In article <jokbg5le74li7d9n257f9s49e3p91 qc...@4ax.com>,
jam...@echeque.com says...
Nonsense. He is not a morally good person at all, and cetainly not
better than many of those he mistreats. His repeated behaviour:
swindling, theft, rape, and killing makes this clear.
The stories are humorous; we would be unlikerly to identify with such a

Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

ger...@indigo.ie (Gerry Quinn) — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 13:52:23 UT

In article <5okag51b720blie2v87j9290a5ppj v8...@4ax.com>,
n...@spam.thankee says...
Yes... "one further step has been taken", apparently by "us". In what
sense has this step been taken? Either it is implicit in the laws of
nature, or it has been taken elsewhere. But you haven't pointed to any
instance of it being taken elsewhere.

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Re: Consequences of Homosexual Marriage

j...@xmission.com (Jon Schild) — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 12:11:15 UT

My favorite non-answer is, "Well, it wouldn't really affect my marriage
specifically. My concern is the damage to marriage as an institution."
Of course, they can't explain what tht is either.

rec.arts.sf.composition Google Group

Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

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Re: Useful Shadow Magic spells?

Re: Useful Shadow Magic spells?

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Re: Consequences of Homosexual Marriage

Re: Consequences of Homosexual Marriage

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Re: Consequences of Homosexual Marriage

Re: magic, morality, and mechanization

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Re: What type of equine to use when?

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