Any particular good stories involving how well or badly justice is handed out in a SF or Fantasy milieu?
One example that pops to mind is Aral's first attempt to attend to the letter of the anti-dueling law, which didn't work out so well. I was recently reminded that was not an example of "People before principles".
I think Discworld has had some rather good and bad examples.
Have any justice systems in stories you've read been David Friedman's dream, completely privatized?[1]
No doubt Mr. Spoor will say this is the entire reason for my post, perhaps no without some justification, but I think it's a good thread subject anyway.
On Nov 5, 11:29 am, Mark Reichert <Mark_Reich...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Any particular good stories involving how well or badly justice is > handed out in a SF or Fantasy milieu?
> One example that pops to mind is Aral's first attempt to attend to the > letter of the anti-dueling law, which didn't work out so well. I was > recently reminded that was not an example of "People before > principles".
> I think Discworld has had some rather good and bad examples.
> Have any justice systems in stories you've read been David Friedman's > dream, completely privatized?[1]
For some reason, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress comes to mind...
:: Have any justice systems in stories you've read been David Friedman's :: dream, completely privatized?[1]
: For some reason, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress comes to mind...
Hm. How about "And Then There Were None"? Or, perhaps "The Ungoverned".
:: Any particular good stories involving how well or badly justice is :: handed out in a SF or Fantasy milieu?
Maybe "The Disposessed". Maybe "Coventry". Or that sequel to Coventry, "Methuselah's Children". Which then reminds me of the "Methuselas" in "Altered Carbon", which has something to do with how well or badly justice is dispensed therein. Or, say, "Oath of Fealty". And... well, free association goes on and on from there.
On Nov 4, 9:29 pm, Mark Reichert <Mark_Reich...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Any particular good stories involving how well or badly justice is > handed out in a SF or Fantasy milieu?
What are the most famous or interesting trials in SF? Some candidates:
_Alice in Wonderland_ by Lewis Carroll "The Devil and Daniel Webster" by Stephen Vincent Benet _The Unholy City_ by Charles G. Finney "The Trial of Adam Link, Robot" by Eando Binder "Arena" by Fredric Brown "Jerry is a Man" by Robert A. Heinlein _Have Spacesuit, Will Travel_ by Robert A. Heinlein _The E.S.P. Worm_ by Piers Anthony and Robert E. Margroff
Butch Malahide wrote: > On Nov 4, 9:29 pm, Mark Reichert <Mark_Reich...@hotmail.com> wrote: >> Any particular good stories involving how well or badly justice is >> handed out in a SF or Fantasy milieu?
> What are the most famous or interesting trials in SF? Some candidates:
> _Alice in Wonderland_ by Lewis Carroll > "The Devil and Daniel Webster" by Stephen Vincent Benet > _The Unholy City_ by Charles G. Finney > "The Trial of Adam Link, Robot" by Eando Binder > "Arena" by Fredric Brown > "Jerry is a Man" by Robert A. Heinlein > _Have Spacesuit, Will Travel_ by Robert A. Heinlein > _The E.S.P. Worm_ by Piers Anthony and Robert E. Margroff
In article <hcuglj$c4...@aioe.org>, (tkmail...@yahoo.co.uk) says...
> Butch Malahide wrote: > > On Nov 4, 9:29 pm, Mark Reichert <Mark_Reich...@hotmail.com> wrote: > >> Any particular good stories involving how well or badly justice is > >> handed out in a SF or Fantasy milieu?
> > What are the most famous or interesting trials in SF? Some candidates:
> > _Alice in Wonderland_ by Lewis Carroll > > "The Devil and Daniel Webster" by Stephen Vincent Benet > > _The Unholy City_ by Charles G. Finney > > "The Trial of Adam Link, Robot" by Eando Binder > > "Arena" by Fredric Brown > > "Jerry is a Man" by Robert A. Heinlein
That's "Jerry was a Man", right?
> > _Have Spacesuit, Will Travel_ by Robert A. Heinlein > > _The E.S.P. Worm_ by Piers Anthony and Robert E. Margroff
> Eric Frank Russell - "The Witness"
_The Dosadi Experiment_ and "The Tactful Saboteur" by Frank Herbert.
Juho Julkunen <giaot...@hotmail.com> wrote: > In article <hcuglj$c4...@aioe.org>, (tkmail...@yahoo.co.uk) says... >> Butch Malahide wrote: >> > On Nov 4, 9:29 pm, Mark Reichert <Mark_Reich...@hotmail.com> wrote: >> >> Any particular good stories involving how well or badly justice is >> >> handed out in a SF or Fantasy milieu?
>> > What are the most famous or interesting trials in SF? Some candidates:
>> > _Alice in Wonderland_ by Lewis Carroll >> > "The Devil and Daniel Webster" by Stephen Vincent Benet >> > _The Unholy City_ by Charles G. Finney >> > "The Trial of Adam Link, Robot" by Eando Binder >> > "Arena" by Fredric Brown >> > "Jerry is a Man" by Robert A. Heinlein
> That's "Jerry was a Man", right?
>> > _Have Spacesuit, Will Travel_ by Robert A. Heinlein >> > _The E.S.P. Worm_ by Piers Anthony and Robert E. Margroff
>> Eric Frank Russell - "The Witness"
> _The Dosadi Experiment_ and "The Tactful Saboteur" by Frank Herbert.
On Nov 5, 12:11 am, djinn <dje...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 5, 11:29 am, Mark Reichert <Mark_Reich...@hotmail.com> wrote:> Any particular good stories involving how well or badly justice is > > handed out in a SF or Fantasy milieu?
> > One example that pops to mind is Aral's first attempt to attend to the > > letter of the anti-dueling law, which didn't work out so well. I was > > recently reminded that was not an example of "People before > > principles".
> > I think Discworld has had some rather good and bad examples.
> > Have any justice systems in stories you've read been David Friedman's > > dream, completely privatized?[1]
> For some reason, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress comes to mind...
It fits, but only to some extent. The Authorities don't care much but they _do_ have the high justice and the low justice. The privatized justice carried out without their knowledge or consent is really a stop-gap measure because the Authorities don't get involved. Some Loonies praise the virtues of their system but they probably would never have resorted to it if the circumstances didn't mandate.
Wayne Throop wrote: > :: Have any justice systems in stories you've read been David Friedman's > :: dream, completely privatized?[1]
> : For some reason, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress comes to mind...
> Hm. How about "And Then There Were None"? > Or, perhaps "The Ungoverned".
> :: Any particular good stories involving how well or badly justice is > :: handed out in a SF or Fantasy milieu?
> Maybe "The Disposessed". Maybe "Coventry". Or that sequel to Coventry, > "Methuselah's Children". Which then reminds me of the "Methuselas" > in "Altered Carbon", which has something to do with how well or badly > justice is dispensed therein. Or, say, "Oath of Fealty". And... > well, free association goes on and on from there.
Mark Reichert <Mark_Reich...@hotmail.com> wrote: > Any particular good stories involving how well or badly justice is > handed out in a SF or Fantasy milieu?
The Demolished Man, by Alfred Bester, or even The Stars My Destination by the same author.
-- ----------------------------------------------------------- | Radovan Garabík http://kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk/~garabik/ | | __..--^^^--..__ garabik @ kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk | ----------------------------------------------------------- Antivirus alert: file .signature infected by signature virus. Hi! I'm a signature virus! Copy me into your signature file to help me spread!
In article <MPG.255d08f664d53be8989...@news.kolumbus.fi>, Juho Julkunen <giaot...@hotmail.com> writes: >In article <hcuglj$c4...@aioe.org>, (tkmail...@yahoo.co.uk) says... >> Butch Malahide wrote: >> > What are the most famous or interesting trials in SF? Some candidates:
Not so famous, but still of interest:
"Kangaroo Court", by Virginia Kids "The Law-Twister Shorty", by Gordon R. Dickson
>_The Dosadi Experiment_ and "The Tactful Saboteur" by Frank Herbert.
Is the latter a story in which BuSab is shown doing some actual sabotage?
-- Michael F. Stemper #include <Standard_Disclaimer> The name of the story is "A Sound of Thunder". It was written by Ray Bradbury. You're welcome.
On Nov 5, 8:09 am, Juho Julkunen <giaot...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> In article <hcuglj$c4...@aioe.org>, (tkmail...@yahoo.co.uk) says...
> > Butch Malahide wrote: > > > What are the most famous or interesting trials in SF? Some candidates:
> > > _Alice in Wonderland_ by Lewis Carroll > > > "The Devil and Daniel Webster" by Stephen Vincent Benet > > > _The Unholy City_ by Charles G. Finney > > > "The Trial of Adam Link, Robot" by Eando Binder > > > "Arena" by Fredric Brown > > > "Jerry is a Man" by Robert A. Heinlein
In article <80ebf9f3-653d-45fb-8e65-395f6547c...@p28g2000vbi.googlegroups.com>, Butch Malahide <fred.gal...@gmail.com> writes:
>On Nov 5, 8:09=A0am, Juho Julkunen <giaot...@hotmail.com> wrote: >> In article <hcuglj$c4...@aioe.org>, =A0(tkmail...@yahoo.co.uk) says... >> > Butch Malahide wrote: >> > > What are the most famous or interesting trials in SF? Some candidates= >> > > "Jerry is a Man" by Robert A. Heinlein
Michael Stemper <mstem...@walkabout.empros.com> wrote: >Butch Malahide <fred.gal...@gmail.com> writes: >>On Nov 5, 8:09=A0am, Juho Julkunen <giaot...@hotmail.com> wrote: >>> > Butch Malahide wrote: >>> > > What are the most famous or interesting trials in SF? Some candidates= >>> > > "Jerry is a Man" by Robert A. Heinlein
>>It was "is" in the original magazine publication, but apparently it's >>been "was" ever since.
>So, it was "is", but it is "was"?
And of course is-not is not not-is.
Dave "depending on what the meaning of 'man' is/was" DeLaney -- \/David DeLaney posting from d...@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK> http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
On Nov 4, 9:53 pm, thro...@sheol.org (Wayne Throop) wrote:
> :: Have any justice systems in stories you've read been David Friedman's > :: dream, completely privatized?[1]
> : For some reason, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress comes to mind...
> Hm. How about "And Then There Were None"? > Or, perhaps "The Ungoverned".
Interesting list.
The Moon is a Harsh Mistress was one of the things that inspired my ideas on the subject. And Vinge, in the afterward to "The Ungoverned," explicitly credits my Machinery of Freedom as his source.
Which is only fair, since I stole some of my ideas about online anonymity from him.
On Nov 4, 11:11 pm, djinn <dje...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 5, 11:29 am, Mark Reichert <Mark_Reich...@hotmail.com> wrote:> Any particular good stories involving how well or badly justice is > > handed out in a SF or Fantasy milieu?
> > One example that pops to mind is Aral's first attempt to attend to the > > letter of the anti-dueling law, which didn't work out so well. I was > > recently reminded that was not an example of "People before > > principles".
> > I think Discworld has had some rather good and bad examples.
> > Have any justice systems in stories you've read been David Friedman's > > dream, completely privatized?[1]
> For some reason, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress comes to mind...
Came to my mind on the way home as well.
Manny sitting judge for Stu being the primary example.
Only thing: reputation actually mattered on pre-Revolution Luna. A bad judge wouldn't have cases brought to him. Today, he'd just hire a public relations flak, perhaps Burson-Marsteller.
On Nov 5, 5:11 am, Butch Malahide <fred.gal...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 4, 9:29 pm, Mark Reichert <Mark_Reich...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Any particular good stories involving how well or badly justice is > > handed out in a SF or Fantasy milieu?
> What are the most famous or interesting trials in SF? Some candidates:
> _Alice in Wonderland_ by Lewis Carroll > "The Devil and Daniel Webster" by Stephen Vincent Benet > _The Unholy City_ by Charles G. Finney > "The Trial of Adam Link, Robot" by Eando Binder > "Arena" by Fredric Brown > "Jerry is a Man" by Robert A. Heinlein > _Have Spacesuit, Will Travel_ by Robert A. Heinlein > _The E.S.P. Worm_ by Piers Anthony and Robert E. Margroff
"Galley Slave" by Isaac Asimov.
There's also a trial in "The Psychohistorians" at the front of "First Foundation".
On Nov 5, 1:28 pm, "Default User" <defaultuse...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Mark Reichert wrote: > > Have any justice systems in stories you've read been David Friedman's > > dream, completely privatized?[1]
> Vernor Vinge's "The Ungoverned". They didn't really go that much into > justice, more protection.
Which what you have to do without some sort of government.
I think Jared Diamond is right in suggesting that Nation/States started from a desire to settle disputes among very large dense groups of people without resorting to warfare.
It was not forced upon people by thuggish con men. Those are just the sort that will take over if the governed stop paying attention.
On Nov 4, 11:53 pm, thro...@sheol.org (Wayne Throop) wrote:
> :: Have any justice systems in stories you've read been David Friedman's > :: dream, completely privatized?[1]
> : For some reason, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress comes to mind...
> Hm. How about "And Then There Were None"? > Or, perhaps "The Ungoverned".
> :: Any particular good stories involving how well or badly justice is > :: handed out in a SF or Fantasy milieu?
> Maybe "The Disposessed". Maybe "Coventry". Or that sequel to Coventry, > "Methuselah's Children". Which then reminds me of the "Methuselas" > in "Altered Carbon", which has something to do with how well or badly > justice is dispensed therein. Or, say, "Oath of Fealty". And...
I forget about how justice was handed out in Todos Santos. The diving board made a bigger impression.<g>
: Mark Reichert <Mark_Reich...@hotmail.com> : I forget about how justice was handed out in Todos Santos. The diving : board made a bigger impression.<g>
I had in mind how they handled the terorist incident, along with the fact that they took some pains to put themselves outside the juristiction of the surrounding area, trading economic power for various special dispensations, and the effects this had on how safe people were and how safe they actually were. Etc etc.
It also occurs to me that issues of the admistration of justice are central to the Codex Alera series. One might almost say justce was privatised, via the Juris Macto (may the crows feast on the unjust). Sadly, only citizens have access to the Juris Macto, and most of the population aren't citizens. Still, it's availability has a mojor impact on several plot points. Plus, of course the way Gaius Sextus is portrayed, and the exchange where Antilus Raucus outlines to Isana both why Sextus is "a fearsome old cat", plus the reasons why that's not adequate in a leader.
Mark Reichert wrote: > Any particular good stories involving how well or badly justice is > handed out in a SF or Fantasy milieu?
The justice system in Simon R Green's Hawk & Fisher series is kind of a caricature of the US justice system. Or perhaps more accurately, it resembles the justice system in many cop movies. Impenetrable bureaucracy, impossible to follow paper trails, criminals walking almost as soon as they're taken in, and the good-guy cops playing fast and loose with the law to get around the system.
Over the course of Glen Cook's Garrett series, the justice system goes from a very corrupt one in which money call the shots to a frightening one in which fanatical secret police rule with a deadly hand.
It's been too long since I read any Stainless Steel Rat, but I'm sure that justice system is portrayed in an entertaining fashion.
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