In article <382063b2-1d35-41e9-bd30-595ed4d5f...@c3g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>, Mark Reichert <Mark_Reich...@hotmail.com> writes:
>On Nov 5, 5:11=A0am, Butch Malahide <fred.gal...@gmail.com> wrote: >> What are the most famous or interesting trials in SF? Some candidates: >"Galley Slave" by Isaac Asimov.
In a similar vein, there's "The Cyber and Justice Holmes", by Frank Riley.
>There's also a trial in "The Psychohistorians" at the front of "First >Foundation".
Is that a typo, or has _Foundatio_ really been retitled?
Mark Reichert wrote: > On Nov 5, 1:28 pm, "Default User" <defaultuse...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > Mark Reichert wrote: > > > Have any justice systems in stories you've read been David > > > Friedman's dream, completely privatized?[1]
> > Vernor Vinge's "The Ungoverned". They didn't really go that much > > into justice, more protection.
> Which what you have to do without some sort of government.
I still think the model for this sort of thing is fundamentally flawed. Something like what you see in "The Ungovered" just wouldn't last very much past the first serious dispute in a community. Most police type actions happen after the fact. If there's no adjudication process that anyone's required to follow, then what good are the services? They don't stay in your house to protect it while you're gone, or walk with you to keep you safe on the street. You might as well save money and spend it on good weapons and security features for the house.
Brian
-- Day 277 of the "no grouchy usenet posts" project
In article <hd1muq$77...@news.eternal-september.org>, mstem...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) writes:
>In article <382063b2-1d35-41e9-bd30-595ed4d5f...@c3g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>, Mark Reichert <Mark_Reich...@hotmail.com> writes: >>There's also a trial in "The Psychohistorians" at the front of "First >>Foundation".
>Is that a typo, or has _Foundatio_ really been retitled?
Naturally, when I ask about a potential typo, I have one of my own. This was supposed to read "_Foundation_".
-- Michael F. Stemper #include <Standard_Disclaimer> A bad day sailing is better than a good day at the office.
In article <MPG.255d862cb895441b989...@news.kolumbus.fi>, Juho Julkunen <giaot...@hotmail.com> writes: >In article <hcv47i$1s...@news.eternal-september.org>, Michael Stemper (mstem...@walkabout.empros.com) says... >> In article <MPG.255d08f664d53be8989...@news.kolumbus.fi>, Juho Julkunen <giaot...@hotmail.com> writes: >> >_The Dosadi Experiment_ and "The Tactful Saboteur" by Frank Herbert.
>> Is the latter a story in which BuSab is shown doing some actual >> sabotage?
>There's sabotage, and BuSab is involved.
>There's some in "A Matter of Traces".
That's nice to know, and maybe I'll encounter one of these some day. I was quite frustrated with the way that BuSab was dangled in front of the reader, but not shown doing its thing, in _Whipping Star_ and _The Dosadi Experiment_.
I thought that it was a cool concept and wished that Herbert had done something with it.
-- Michael F. Stemper #include <Standard_Disclaimer> If it's "tourist season", where do I get my license?
Somebody wrote and got quoted so densely that their name has dropped off the list
> > > Have any justice systems in stories you've read been David Friedman's > > > dream, completely privatized?[1]
iirc L. Neil Smith's _The Probability Broach*_ worked that way.
* a title that always makes me think of a small pin-on time machine. -- Kay Shapero address munged, email kay at following domain http://www.kayshapero.net
> Any particular good stories involving how well or badly justice is > handed out in a SF or Fantasy milieu?
> One example that pops to mind is Aral's first attempt to attend to the > letter of the anti-dueling law, which didn't work out so well. I was > recently reminded that was not an example of "People before > principles".
> I think Discworld has had some rather good and bad examples.
> Have any justice systems in stories you've read been David Friedman's > dream, completely privatized?[1]
> [1] I thought of him when I saw this last night:
> No doubt Mr. Spoor will say this is the entire reason for my post, > perhaps no without some justification, but I think it's a good thread > subject anyway.
A Planet for Texans / Lone Star Planet, by Piper) Trilogy: Circuit, Circuit Breaker, Final Circuit, by Melinda M. Snodgrass. What about the trials Pendarvis judges in the Fuzzy books?
On Nov 6, 11:54 am, mstem...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) wrote:
> In article <hd1muq$77...@news.eternal-september.org>, mstem...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) writes:
> >In article <382063b2-1d35-41e9-bd30-595ed4d5f...@c3g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>, Mark Reichert <Mark_Reich...@hotmail.com> writes: > >>There's also a trial in "The Psychohistorians" at the front of "First > >>Foundation".
> >Is that a typo, or has _Foundatio_ really been retitled?
> Naturally, when I ask about a potential typo, I have one of my own. > This was supposed to read "_Foundation_".
Actually, you got it right. I was operating from memory and I haven't read the books in awhile.
> Mark Reichert wrote: > > On Nov 5, 1:28 pm, "Default User" <defaultuse...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > Mark Reichert wrote: > > > > Have any justice systems in stories you've read been David > > > > Friedman's dream, completely privatized?[1]
> > > Vernor Vinge's "The Ungoverned". They didn't really go that much > > > into justice, more protection.
> > Which what you have to do without some sort of government.
> I still think the model for this sort of thing is fundamentally flawed. > Something like what you see in "The Ungovered" just wouldn't last very > much past the first serious dispute in a community. Most police type > actions happen after the fact. If there's no adjudication process that > anyone's required to follow, then what good are the services? They > don't stay in your house to protect it while you're gone, or walk with > you to keep you safe on the street. You might as well save money and > spend it on good weapons and security features for the house.
Which is what I've pointed out to guns, guns, guns people.
Much as I liked the wall of guns in Tremors, keeping that amount of loaded guns on a wall is overkill and dangerous. They'd have been better off putting steel reinforcement in their foundation.
Beefed up active and passive security also has the benefit of working when you aren't there to use your guns. Might prevent one of the most frequent fates of guns..being stolen.
> On Nov 6, 11:45 am, "Default User" <defaultuse...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Mark Reichert wrote: > > > On Nov 5, 1:28 pm, "Default User" <defaultuse...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > Mark Reichert wrote: > > > > > Have any justice systems in stories you've read been David > > > > > Friedman's dream, completely privatized?[1]
> > > > Vernor Vinge's "The Ungoverned". They didn't really go that much > > > > into justice, more protection.
> > > Which what you have to do without some sort of government.
> > I still think the model for this sort of thing is fundamentally flawed. > > Something like what you see in "The Ungovered" just wouldn't last very > > much past the first serious dispute in a community. Most police type > > actions happen after the fact. If there's no adjudication process that > > anyone's required to follow, then what good are the services? They > > don't stay in your house to protect it while you're gone, or walk with > > you to keep you safe on the street. You might as well save money and > > spend it on good weapons and security features for the house.
> Which is what I've pointed out to guns, guns, guns people.
> Much as I liked the wall of guns in Tremors, keeping that amount of > loaded guns on a wall is overkill and dangerous. They'd have been > better off putting steel reinforcement in their foundation.
> Beefed up active and passive security also has the benefit of working > when you aren't there to use your guns. Might prevent one of the most > frequent fates of guns..being stolen.
Remember, the clients of the narrator/protagonists have signed "no right to bear arms" agreements with his company. In that environment I think that means that the security providers have to keep someone around your property pretty much all the time. Certainly, they would have to have extremely frequent patrols. I would no more hire them and give up my RTKBA than I would think the Branford and New Haven police departments provide anything but some passive protection and deterrence.
> Juho Julkunen <giaot...@hotmail.com> wrote: >> In article <hcuglj$c4...@aioe.org>, (tkmail...@yahoo.co.uk) says... >>> Butch Malahide wrote: >>> > On Nov 4, 9:29 pm, Mark Reichert <Mark_Reich...@hotmail.com> >>> > wrote: >>> >> Any particular good stories involving how well or badly justice >>> >> is handed out in a SF or Fantasy milieu?
>>> > What are the most famous or interesting trials in SF? Some >>> > candidates:
>>> > _Alice in Wonderland_ by Lewis Carroll >>> > "The Devil and Daniel Webster" by Stephen Vincent Benet >>> > _The Unholy City_ by Charles G. Finney >>> > "The Trial of Adam Link, Robot" by Eando Binder >>> > "Arena" by Fredric Brown >>> > "Jerry is a Man" by Robert A. Heinlein
>> That's "Jerry was a Man", right?
>>> > _Have Spacesuit, Will Travel_ by Robert A. Heinlein >>> > _The E.S.P. Worm_ by Piers Anthony and Robert E. Margroff
>>> Eric Frank Russell - "The Witness"
>> _The Dosadi Experiment_ and "The Tactful Saboteur" by Frank Herbert.
Butch Malahide wrote: > On Nov 4, 9:29 pm, Mark Reichert <Mark_Reich...@hotmail.com> wrote: >> Any particular good stories involving how well or badly justice is >> handed out in a SF or Fantasy milieu?
> What are the most famous or interesting trials in SF? Some > candidates:
> _Alice in Wonderland_ by Lewis Carroll "The Devil and Daniel Webster" > by Stephen Vincent Benet _The Unholy City_ by Charles G. Finney "The > Trial of Adam Link, Robot" by Eando Binder "Arena" by Fredric Brown > "Jerry is a Man" by Robert A. Heinlein _Have Spacesuit, Will Travel_ > by Robert A. Heinlein _The E.S.P. Worm_ by Piers Anthony and Robert > E. Margroff
Taking a broad definition of "SF":
Franz Kafka, _The Trial_ (duh) William Burroughs, _Nova Express_ James Joyce, _Ulysses_ (hallucinated)
And I would add:
Pink Floyd, _The Wall_ (or _Pink Floyd: The Wall_, if you prefer the movie version)
Strange pleasures are known to him who flaunts the immarcescible purple of poetry before the color-blind. -- Clark Ashton Smith, "Epigrams and Apothegms"
|
