On Nov 6, 10:25 am, Christopher A. Lee <ca...@optonline.net> wrote:
> On Fri, 6 Nov 2009 09:12:00 -0800 (PST), Jenny6833A
> <Jenny68...@aol.com> wrote: > >On Nov 3, 1:03?pm, James A. Donald <jam...@echeque.com> wrote:
> ><snip>
> >> Evangelism is the primary method by which Christianity has spread.
> >Although I'm less than expert on the history of Europe, North America, > >Central America, South America, Australia, New Zealand, and many other > >parts of the world, I do think you'd have a hard time supporting that > >statement.
> It was spread through Western Europe by Charlemagne at sword point.
As the French might say, but don't, ne merde pas.
> And of course there was the reformation when Catholicism tried to > eliminate Protestantism and vice versa by killing each other. A > precursor of this was the extermination of the Cathars, a heretical > Christian sect.
"a _heretical_ Christian sect"? Mr Lee, Sir, you surprise me. I'd never have thought that you, of all people, would call someone a "heretic" for disagreeing with the Pope.
On Fri, 6 Nov 2009 09:25:23 -0800 (PST), Jenny6833A wrote: > On Nov 6, 10:18 am, rfisc...@sonic.net (Ray Fischer) wrote: >> James A. Donald <jam...@echeque.com> wrote:
>>>Evangelism is the primary method by which Christianity has spread.
>> And intimidation, murder, and violence.
>>> The borders >>>of Islam are bloody.
>> But ignore the Celts who had their culture erased by brutal early >> Christians. Notice what happened to indingenous people worldwide. >> Don't forget centuries of brutal anti-Semitism. The Crusades. The >> Holocaust.
> And the Cathars!
You have to admit though, the experience was quite cathartic for them....
> > Evangelism is the primary method by which Christianity has spread.
Jenny6833A
> Although I'm less than expert on the history of Europe, North America, > Central America, South America, Australia, New Zealand, and many other > parts of the world, I do think you'd have a hard time supporting that > statement.
You are indeed less than expert. Christianity spread in Europe, Africa by evangelism, North America, Australia, and New Zealand by settlement and evangelism. There was substantial coercion in South America, but a glance at some of those Latin American "Catholic" churches suggests that merely nominal conversion sufficed.
> > Violence is the primary method by which Islam has spread. > Islam has been no more violent than Christianity,
In any war, both sides use comparable violence, but who started the war?
Today, Coptic Christians are converting to Islam at gunpoint, but Iraqis are not converting to Christianity at gunpoint. And that is much the way it has always been.
Let us look at how Islam started, and compare with how Christianity started. Mohammed massacred the Jews and raped the women. Then he wrecked the economy of Mecca by terrorist attacks on trade caravans, forcing them to convert in order to get back in business. When today's Muslims destroy passenger planes, they are walking in the footsteps of Mohammed. Jesus died for his faith, Mohammed murdered and raped for his faith.
As Islam began, so it continues. This thursday another American Muslim walked in Mohammed's footsteps at Fort Hood. Islam was more violent in the beginning, it is more violent today. And if you read accurate history instead of politically correct lies concocted to inflame hatred and justify terrorism, you would know it has been more violent for the past fourteen hundred years. There have been 1300 years of warfare and not quite peace between Islam and the rest, during which Islam has repeatedly made land for peace deals, and reneged on them every time once it had the land - the peace of Vasvar bearing a striking resemblance to the Oslo accords.
> I think you're attributing violence to Islam whenever there are > significant numbers of Muslims present, and either ignoring violence > or blaming it on something else when Muslims are in short supply.
When communism was around, communism was the primary cause of violence. But today, in the world as a whole, Islam is the primary cause of collective violence, socially supported violence.
> Given that French society is substantially less violent than American > society,
According to the international victimization survey the rate of sexual assault is about the same in the US as France. The rate of hot burglary, burglary of an occupied house, is far higher in France than in the US. So all up, the *individual* violence level is about the same. War, however, is collective violence, group on group.
> I'm also interested in why you think France is closer to war > than North America is.
In America we don't have ethnic groups invading the suburbs of other ethnic groups and setting fire to their cars. We don't have no-go areas where the police cannot go. So the level of collective violence, organized violence, socially sponsored violence, is far higher in France than in the US. Collective violence has a tendency to get out of hand.
> Were you to live in France, or spend a lot of time there, you might > conclude that integration and thus secularization is proceeding > rapidly.
Every year, the riots get more destructive: <http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1869392,00.html> Looks to me that Islamization, not secularization, is proceeding rapidly. What you are calling integration, looks to me like conquest and submission.
On 06 Nov 2009 17:18:27 GMT, rfisc...@sonic.net (Ray Fischer) wrote:
> But ignore the Celts who had their culture erased by brutal early > Christians. Notice what happened to indingenous people worldwide. > Don't forget centuries of brutal anti-Semitism. The Crusades. The > Holocaust.
Observe that there are a lot more Jews outside of Islam than within it. Most Jews that are alive today, are alive thanks to the crusades.
>On 06 Nov 2009 17:18:27 GMT, rfisc...@sonic.net (Ray Fischer) wrote: >> But ignore the Celts who had their culture erased by brutal early >> Christians. Notice what happened to indingenous people worldwide. >> Don't forget centuries of brutal anti-Semitism. The Crusades. The >> Holocaust.
>Observe that there are a lot more Jews outside of Islam than within >it.
There are no Jewish Muslims.
> Most Jews that are alive today, are alive thanks to the crusades.
LOL! If one ignores the centuries of brutal anti-Semitism.
> >> [Christianity] was spread through Western Europe by Charlemagne at sword point. > >It was spread to Saxony by Charlemagne at sword point, but where did > >Charlemagne's Christianity come from? > My guess would be "political expediency".
It is probable that Charlemagne did not believe in anything other than himself and good quality steel, but he was a descendent of heavily armed pagans that had been converted to Christianity by unarmed missionaries.
On 07 Nov 2009 04:41:47 GMT, rfisc...@sonic.net (Ray Fischer) wrote:
> James A. Donald <jam...@echeque.com> wrote: > >On 06 Nov 2009 17:18:27 GMT, rfisc...@sonic.net (Ray Fischer) wrote: > >> But ignore the Celts who had their culture erased by brutal early > >> Christians. Notice what happened to indingenous people worldwide. > >> Don't forget centuries of brutal anti-Semitism. The Crusades. The > >> Holocaust.
> >Observe that there are a lot more Jews outside of Islam than within > >it.
>> >> [Christianity] was spread through Western Europe by Charlemagne at sword point.
>> >It was spread to Saxony by Charlemagne at sword point, but where did >> >Charlemagne's Christianity come from?
>> My guess would be "political expediency".
>It is probable that Charlemagne did not believe in anything other than >himself and good quality steel, but he was a descendent of heavily >armed pagans that had been converted to Christianity by unarmed >missionaries.
"Unarmed missionaries" supported by armed soldiers.
> rfisc...@sonic.net (Ray Fischer) wrote: >> James A. Donald <jam...@echeque.com> wrote: >> >On 06 Nov 2009 17:18:27 GMT, rfisc...@sonic.net (Ray Fischer) wrote: >> >> But ignore the Celts who had their culture erased by brutal early >> >> Christians. Notice what happened to indingenous people worldwide. >> >> Don't forget centuries of brutal anti-Semitism. The Crusades. The >> >> Holocaust.
>> >Observe that there are a lot more Jews outside of Islam than within >> >it.
> > It is probable that Charlemagne did not believe in anything other than > > himself and good quality steel, but he was a descendent of heavily > > armed pagans that had been converted to Christianity by unarmed > > missionaries.
Ray Fischer
> "Unarmed missionaries" supported by armed soldiers.
The Roman empire in the west was overrun by German barbarians, so it was the pagans that had the soldiers.
Similarly, when we read the instructions sent to reconvert England. The Catholic church in England had been slaughtered by pagans who had exterminated the previously existing Christians. Pope Gregory sent Augustine (who became Saint Augustine of Canterbury) with forty priors to convert the pagans. It is evident from their conduct and discussions that they faced a significant risk of being killed.
On 07 Nov 2009 07:30:06 GMT, rfisc...@sonic.net (Ray Fischer) wrote:
> James A. Donald <jam...@echeque.com> wrote: > > rfisc...@sonic.net (Ray Fischer) wrote: > >> James A. Donald <jam...@echeque.com> wrote: Ray Fischer: > >> >> But ignore the Celts who had their culture erased by brutal early > >> >> Christians. Notice what happened to indingenous people worldwide. > >> >> Don't forget centuries of brutal anti-Semitism. The Crusades. The > >> >> Holocaust. > >> >Observe that there are a lot more Jews outside of Islam than within > >> >it. > >> There are no Jewish Muslims. > >There are no Jews in Iraq either. > Like Christian Nazi Germany?
After the holocaust, there were still more Jews in Germany than in the middle east. Even Nazi Germany demonstrates that Christendom is more peaceable and tolerant than Islam.
>> > It is probable that Charlemagne did not believe in anything other than >> > himself and good quality steel, but he was a descendent of heavily >> > armed pagans that had been converted to Christianity by unarmed >> > missionaries.
>> "Unarmed missionaries" supported by armed soldiers.
>The Roman empire in the west was overrun by German barbarians, so it >was the pagans that had the soldiers.
That's stupid even for you.
The Nazis were overrun by the Allies. Does that mean that the Nazis had no weapons?
> Observe that there are a lot more Jews outside of Islam than within > it. Most Jews that are alive today, are alive thanks to the crusades.
That's stupid even for you. Most Jews that are alive today trace their ancestry to Islamic areas, the U.S, or the parts of Russia that the Nazis didn't get to. The ones who lived in the rest of the Christian world were murdered.
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