On Nov 4, 11:38 am, nebu...@-rpi-.edu (Joseph Nebus) wrote:
> One of the modest joys of my father's life is correcting the > radio traffic reports on their pronunciation of the Kosciuszko Bridge.
This is one of the great problems with the English language. We borrow words from foreign languages. We do not alter the spelling to correspond to our rules of pronounciation of letter strings. So for an English speaker to be able to pronounce a word correctly that he encounters in reading, or to infer the spelling of a word he hears, he basically must be familiar with the rules of orthography of a large number of other languages, particularly Greek, Latin, and German. When proper names are also taken into account, the number of languages involved expands considerably.
On Wed, 04 Nov 2009 17:57:33 +0000, Don Aitken <don-ait...@freeuk.com> wrote:
>On Wed, 04 Nov 2009 11:00:42 -0600, erilar ><dra...@chibardun.net.invalid> wrote:
>> I once taught in a school district where we had many Polish names >>and I got used to the fact that pronunciation of those names and the >>relationship of spelling to pronunciation I was used to were very different 8-)
>I have no problem pronouncing Polish names as used by Poles in Polish; >the rules are simple and easily grasped. What is impossible is >guessing the pronunciations of their names likely to be employed by >Polish-Americans, which can be "anglicised" in a whole slew of >different ways over several generations. The same is true of lots of >other languages.
Yeah. Even familiar ones like German and French. I mean, the German name Fuchs usually winds up as "fyooks," but I once knew a girl who loudly insisted her family pronounced it "fucks," and if you thought that was funny, then you were an idiot.
And then there are the names that went through an illterate generation or two and wound up with a spelling not much like the original.
> One of the modest joys of my father's life is correcting the > radio traffic reports on their pronunciation of the Kosciuszko Bridge.
I guess they pronounced it as "Koss-yasko" OSLT?
-- Szymon Sokół (SS316-RIPE) -- Network Manager B Computer Center, AGH - University of Science and Technology, Cracow, Poland O http://home.agh.edu.pl/szymon/ PGP key id: RSA: 0x2ABE016B, DSS: 0xF9289982 F Free speech includes the right not to listen, if not interested -- Heinlein H
Michael Grosberg wrote: > On Nov 4, 7:02 pm, Robert Carnegie <rja.carne...@excite.com> wrote: > > On Nov 2, 5:11 pm, jdnic...@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:
> > > >In article <hcn145$ea...@panix3.panix.com>, > > > >James Nicoll <jdnic...@panix.com> wrote: > > > >> As long as the plot moves along nicely, does it matter if they > > > >>use the wrong name for the current Governor General of America?
> > > >????? Context?
> > > Part of an ongoing discussion: as long as the story is good, > > > do authors need to fact-check.
> > > Not related to anything I am reading (although I did spend some > > > time reading on the regency to narrow down when one book I am reading is > > > set. The best I could do was 1816-1820, but it does seem to be set in > > > that stretch, as opposed to "the 19th century, when Victoria was Queen, > > > Britain was at war with Napoleon, and Herbert George Wells had just > > > terrified the gentle folk of America with a Dramatic Rendition of War > > > of the Worlds").
> > On reflection, a fantasy novel called "The New Testament" has this > > kind of problem. There's some weirdness about a worldwide census that > > apparently didn't take place in actual history, there's geography that > > they say is wrong - the author may not have visited the country where > > it's set. At one point the hero apparently walks from point A to B, > > but they're places on opposite shores of a large body of water. Sat > > nav was not involved...
> Not being a christian, but being familiar with said country, I feel > curious - Care to expand? what large body of water are we talking > about?
The "Sea of Galilee" - "also Lake of Gennesaret, Lake Kinneret or Sea of Tiberias" in English, according to Wikipedia.
> >> I once taught in a school district where we had many Polish names > >>and I got used to the fact that pronunciation of those names and the > >>relationship of spelling to pronunciation I was used to were very different > >>8-)
> >I have no problem pronouncing Polish names as used by Poles in Polish; > >the rules are simple and easily grasped. What is impossible is > >guessing the pronunciations of their names likely to be employed by > >Polish-Americans, which can be "anglicised" in a whole slew of > >different ways over several generations. The same is true of lots of > >other languages.
> Yeah. Even familiar ones like German and French. I mean, the German > name Fuchs usually winds up as "fyooks," but I once knew a girl who > loudly insisted her family pronounced it "fucks," and if you thought > that was funny, then you were an idiot.
> And then there are the names that went through an illterate generation > or two and wound up with a spelling not much like the original.
The immigration officer assigned them a spelling, perhaps.
-- A computer without Microsoft is like a chocolate cake without mustard.
> On Nov 2, 5:11 pm, jdnic...@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote: > > In article <KsHpz3.1...@kithrup.com>, > > Dorothy J Heydt <djhe...@kithrup.com> wrote:
> > >In article <hcn145$ea...@panix3.panix.com>, > > >James Nicoll <jdnic...@panix.com> wrote: > > >> As long as the plot moves along nicely, does it matter if they > > >>use the wrong name for the current Governor General of America?
> > >????? Context?
> > Part of an ongoing discussion: as long as the story is good, > > do authors need to fact-check.
> > Not related to anything I am reading (although I did spend some > > time reading on the regency to narrow down when one book I am reading is > > set. The best I could do was 1816-1820, but it does seem to be set in > > that stretch, as opposed to "the 19th century, when Victoria was Queen, > > Britain was at war with Napoleon, and Herbert George Wells had just > > terrified the gentle folk of America with a Dramatic Rendition of War > > of the Worlds").
> On reflection, a fantasy novel called "The New Testament" has this > kind of problem. There's some weirdness about a worldwide census that > apparently didn't take place in actual history, there's geography that > they say is wrong - the author may not have visited the country where > it's set. At one point the hero apparently walks from point A to B, > but they're places on opposite shores of a large body of water. Sat > nav was not involved...
Not only that, the major problem is that there was a war of national liberation going on in the area, and the text suppresses or ignores the evidence. For example, John the Baptist is killed in the NT because of a sex scandal rather than "This man is dangerous he is gathering a large following of hard core jewish followers."
-- A computer without Microsoft is like a chocolate cake without mustard.
"n...@bid.nes" <alien8...@gmail.com> wrote: > On Nov 4, 9:02 am, Robert Carnegie <rja.carne...@excite.com> wrote: > > On Nov 2, 5:11 pm, jdnic...@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:
> > > >In article <hcn145$ea...@panix3.panix.com>, > > > >James Nicoll <jdnic...@panix.com> wrote: > > > >> As long as the plot moves along nicely, does it matter if they > > > >>use the wrong name for the current Governor General of America?
> > > >????? Context?
> > > Part of an ongoing discussion: as long as the story is good, > > > do authors need to fact-check.
> > > Not related to anything I am reading (although I did spend some > > > time reading on the regency to narrow down when one book I am reading is > > > set. The best I could do was 1816-1820, but it does seem to be set in > > > that stretch, as opposed to "the 19th century, when Victoria was Queen, > > > Britain was at war with Napoleon, and Herbert George Wells had just > > > terrified the gentle folk of America with a Dramatic Rendition of War > > > of the Worlds").
> > On reflection, a fantasy novel called "The New Testament" has this
> Speaking of nitpicking, _The New Testament_ is a shared-fantasy- > world anthology.
> (Of course, so was _The Old Testament_.)
> > kind of problem. There's some weirdness about a worldwide census that > > apparently didn't take place in actual history, there's geography that > > they say is wrong - the author may not have visited the country where > > it's set. At one point the hero apparently walks from point A to B, > > but they're places on opposite shores of a large body of water. Sat > > nav was not involved...
> That level of tech doesn't exist in context. Certain kinds of magic > do, though they aren't called "magic". Also, while walking across > certain large real-world bodies of water is easy in local winter, > that's not mentioned in the episode you cite.
> The anthologies have other problems; the various authors don't seem > to have checked with each other; some story elements are repeated with > varying levels of accuracy.
> At least most of the proper names and place names are > pronounceable. ;>)
> Mark L. Fergerson
If the Holy Family was Jewish, how come all their names are Mexican?
-- A computer without Microsoft is like a chocolate cake without mustard.
Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> wrote: >And then there are the names that went through an illterate generation >or two and wound up with a spelling not much like the original.
An old girlfriend was named "Desireau". I was never able to make sense of the ending on the french word with my high school french.
Much later, her daughter showed me a family tree that an aunt had put together. The Aunt claimed that the illiterate Quebecois gold prospector that the family was descended from was really named "Des Sureaux" - "elderberry"
Illiteracy and a language change can dramatically change a name. -- apart from one noisy guy up in Canada, no-one wants a three-cylinder tissue box on bicycle tires.
>> >> I once taught in a school district where we had many Polish names >> >>and I got used to the fact that pronunciation of those names and the >> >>relationship of spelling to pronunciation I was used to were very different >> >>8-)
>> >I have no problem pronouncing Polish names as used by Poles in Polish; >> >the rules are simple and easily grasped. What is impossible is >> >guessing the pronunciations of their names likely to be employed by >> >Polish-Americans, which can be "anglicised" in a whole slew of >> >different ways over several generations. The same is true of lots of >> >other languages.
>> Yeah. Even familiar ones like German and French. I mean, the German >> name Fuchs usually winds up as "fyooks," but I once knew a girl who >> loudly insisted her family pronounced it "fucks," and if you thought >> that was funny, then you were an idiot.
>> And then there are the names that went through an illterate generation >> or two and wound up with a spelling not much like the original.
>The immigration officer assigned them a spelling, perhaps.
The ones I know were descendants of illiterate French-Canadian peasants who came south looking for work; no immigration officers were involved, just people who didn't know the French spelling of their own names.
In article <nebusj.1257359...@vcmr-86.server.rpi.edu>, nebu...@-rpi-.edu (Joseph Nebus) wrote:
> One of the modest joys of my father's life is correcting the > radio traffic reports on their pronunciation of the Kosciuszko Bridge.
I'd say that as "kuh-SHOOS-ko" (upper case to show the stressed syllable), as would many of the pole-descended families around Bay City MI. Including some who live on Kosciuszko Street. :)
The one that clobbered me (and burned itself into my brain for eternity because it was so odd) was the gal I knew whose grandmother was the first generation of the family to get here. Przytsaptski was the spelling of the family name she brought with her, as translated/transliterated by the highly educated folks on Ellis Island. When granny said it, it came out as "SHUH-bill-ski"
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> >And then there are the names that went through an illterate generation > >or two and wound up with a spelling not much like the original.
> An old girlfriend was named "Desireau". I was never able to make > sense of the ending on the french word with my high school french.
> Much later, her daughter showed me a family tree that an aunt had put > together. The Aunt claimed that the illiterate Quebecois gold > prospector that the family was descended from was really named "Des > Sureaux" - "elderberry"
There's a similar name-jump in my own family tree. Mom did the tracing back into the 1700s, and we found out that one of our family's surnames was an Ellis Island mangling - According to the records she found, a fellow got on the boat in France as Francis Genoud, that boat unloaded "cross-the-atlantic" days later at Ellis Island, and Francis Genoud apparently ceased to exist during the trip. Interestingly enough, the same day that Francis was noticed missing, a Frank Shinew was processed through immigration. Frank ended up becoming my 4x-great-grandfather.
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> > >And then there are the names that went through an illterate generation > > >or two and wound up with a spelling not much like the original.
> > An old girlfriend was named "Desireau". I was never able to make > > sense of the ending on the french word with my high school french.
> > Much later, her daughter showed me a family tree that an aunt had put > > together. The Aunt claimed that the illiterate Quebecois gold > > prospector that the family was descended from was really named "Des > > Sureaux" - "elderberry"
> There's a similar name-jump in my own family tree. Mom did the tracing > back into the 1700s, and we found out that one of our family's surnames > was an Ellis Island mangling - According to the records she found, a > fellow got on the boat in France as Francis Genoud, that boat unloaded > "cross-the-atlantic" days later at Ellis Island, and Francis Genoud > apparently ceased to exist during the trip. Interestingly enough, the > same day that Francis was noticed missing, a Frank Shinew was processed > through immigration. Frank ended up becoming my 4x-great-grandfather.
Am I misled by your own name of "Bruder"?
I am imagining a German genealogical Abbott and Costello act.
On Mon, 09 Nov 2009 15:18:47 -0500, Joy Beeson wrote: > On 4 Nov 2009 13:38:02 -0500, nebu...@-rpi-.edu (Joseph Nebus) wrote:
>> One of the modest joys of my father's life is correcting the >> radio traffic reports on their pronunciation of the Kosciuszko Bridge.
> Last time I heard the Kosciuszko Bridge referred to in a traffic > report, it was pronounced "The Twin Bridges".
> (It carried, and I presume still carries, a divided highway over the > Mohawk.)
> Folks around here (Warsaw Indiana) say kozzy-osko.
...and if anyone is interested in correct Polish pronounciation, it can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media:Pl-Tadeusz_Kościuszko.ogg -- Szymon Sokół (SS316-RIPE) -- Network Manager B Computer Center, AGH - University of Science and Technology, Cracow, Poland O http://home.agh.edu.pl/szymon/ PGP key id: RSA: 0x2ABE016B, DSS: 0xF9289982 F Free speech includes the right not to listen, if not interested -- Heinlein H
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