> Given that you are not a scientist and haven't kept up with all the > latest developments, how in the world do you think you should be > able > to judge anyone's motives or logic concerning the subject?
> Wassup wit dat?
That's where the curiosity factor was supposed to come into play. You don't need to be a scientist to expose faulty logic. I had what I thought was a good plan, which I'll save for another day.
> > "NotBillB" <bo...@shaw1.ca> wrote in message > > news:TPSFm.111793$944.72423@newsfe09.iad... > > > Are any of you willing to answer some of my direct questions on this > > > topic? By that, I mean no stonewalling, no red herrings, no changing > > > the subject, and no answering questions with questions. I'll just > > > ask some fairly simple, straightforward questions; you give me > > > honest, direct, straightforward answers. Sort of like a mini > > > cross-examination. You can even team up and answer as a group if > > > you'd prefer, or several of you can participate individually. Your > > > choice.
> > > Any volunteers? I think it could be an interesting exercise. I have > > > a line of questioning I am interested in exploring.
> > OK, I guess Irish Mike just stopped by to cut and paste his usual > > rant. I take it he won't be participating. We may as well get started.
> > Five people have agreed to participate: Lab Rat, Dave the Clueless, FL > > Turbo, Jason Pawloski, and my stalker. Naturally, I will continue to > > ignore my stalker. Jason Pawloski says he is going to participate, > > but not follow the ground rules. I would prefer he didn't participate > > under those circumstances, but I can't prevent it, so we will just use > > him as our control in this experiment. He will represent the typical > > climate change denier, unencumbered by logic, common sense, or a firm > > grasp on the subject matter.
> > I suppose the best place to start is the same place I'd start with any > > expert witness. What I need from each of you is an outline of your > > qualifications in this field. Can you please summarize your CV as it > > relates to climate science, specifically, the advanced degrees you > > hold in the atmospheric sciences, a list of the papers you have > > published in peer reviewed earth science journals, and a brief summary > > of your work experience in the field of climatology.
> No background in climatology. Dual degree in Chemistry & Biotechnology > with honours in Chemistry. Have taught university level courses in > Thermochemistry, Kinetics & Thermodynamics, and have a reasonable physical > chemistry background.
Is it better to splash beer into the bottom of the glass or pour it down the side of the glass?
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>> > "NotBillB" <bo...@shaw1.ca> wrote in message >> > news:TPSFm.111793$944.72423@newsfe09.iad... >> > > Are any of you willing to answer some of my direct questions on this >> > > topic? By that, I mean no stonewalling, no red herrings, no changing >> > > the subject, and no answering questions with questions. I'll just >> > > ask some fairly simple, straightforward questions; you give me >> > > honest, direct, straightforward answers. Sort of like a mini >> > > cross-examination. You can even team up and answer as a group if >> > > you'd prefer, or several of you can participate individually. Your >> > > choice.
>> > > Any volunteers? I think it could be an interesting exercise. I have >> > > a line of questioning I am interested in exploring.
>> > OK, I guess Irish Mike just stopped by to cut and paste his usual >> > rant. I take it he won't be participating. We may as well get started.
>> > Five people have agreed to participate: Lab Rat, Dave the Clueless, FL >> > Turbo, Jason Pawloski, and my stalker. Naturally, I will continue to >> > ignore my stalker. Jason Pawloski says he is going to participate, >> > but not follow the ground rules. I would prefer he didn't participate >> > under those circumstances, but I can't prevent it, so we will just use >> > him as our control in this experiment. He will represent the typical >> > climate change denier, unencumbered by logic, common sense, or a firm >> > grasp on the subject matter.
>> > I suppose the best place to start is the same place I'd start with any >> > expert witness. What I need from each of you is an outline of your >> > qualifications in this field. Can you please summarize your CV as it >> > relates to climate science, specifically, the advanced degrees you >> > hold in the atmospheric sciences, a list of the papers you have >> > published in peer reviewed earth science journals, and a brief summary >> > of your work experience in the field of climatology.
>> No background in climatology. Dual degree in Chemistry & Biotechnology >> with honours in Chemistry. Have taught university level courses in >> Thermochemistry, Kinetics & Thermodynamics, and have a reasonable >> physical >> chemistry background.
> Is it better to splash beer into the bottom of the glass or pour it down > the side of the glass?
> >> > "NotBillB" <bo...@shaw1.ca> wrote in message > >> > news:TPSFm.111793$944.72423@newsfe09.iad... > >> > > Are any of you willing to answer some of my direct questions on this > >> > > topic? By that, I mean no stonewalling, no red herrings, no changing > >> > > the subject, and no answering questions with questions. I'll just > >> > > ask some fairly simple, straightforward questions; you give me > >> > > honest, direct, straightforward answers. Sort of like a mini > >> > > cross-examination. You can even team up and answer as a group if > >> > > you'd prefer, or several of you can participate individually. Your > >> > > choice.
> >> > > Any volunteers? I think it could be an interesting exercise. I have > >> > > a line of questioning I am interested in exploring.
> >> > OK, I guess Irish Mike just stopped by to cut and paste his usual > >> > rant. I take it he won't be participating. We may as well get started.
> >> > Five people have agreed to participate: Lab Rat, Dave the Clueless, FL > >> > Turbo, Jason Pawloski, and my stalker. Naturally, I will continue to > >> > ignore my stalker. Jason Pawloski says he is going to participate, > >> > but not follow the ground rules. I would prefer he didn't participate > >> > under those circumstances, but I can't prevent it, so we will just use > >> > him as our control in this experiment. He will represent the typical > >> > climate change denier, unencumbered by logic, common sense, or a firm > >> > grasp on the subject matter.
> >> > I suppose the best place to start is the same place I'd start with any > >> > expert witness. What I need from each of you is an outline of your > >> > qualifications in this field. Can you please summarize your CV as it > >> > relates to climate science, specifically, the advanced degrees you > >> > hold in the atmospheric sciences, a list of the papers you have > >> > published in peer reviewed earth science journals, and a brief summary > >> > of your work experience in the field of climatology.
> >> No background in climatology. Dual degree in Chemistry & Biotechnology > >> with honours in Chemistry. Have taught university level courses in > >> Thermochemistry, Kinetics & Thermodynamics, and have a reasonable > >> physical > >> chemistry background.
> > Is it better to splash beer into the bottom of the glass or pour it down > > the side of the glass?
> American beer or Australian beer?
American lager. I doubt that Australian beer is of very good quality. Those Aussies would drink rubbing alcohol if it was the only way they could think of to get blind drunk.
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>> >> > "NotBillB" <bo...@shaw1.ca> wrote in message >> >> > news:TPSFm.111793$944.72423@newsfe09.iad... >> >> > > Are any of you willing to answer some of my direct questions on >> >> > > this >> >> > > topic? By that, I mean no stonewalling, no red herrings, no >> >> > > changing >> >> > > the subject, and no answering questions with questions. I'll just >> >> > > ask some fairly simple, straightforward questions; you give me >> >> > > honest, direct, straightforward answers. Sort of like a mini >> >> > > cross-examination. You can even team up and answer as a group if >> >> > > you'd prefer, or several of you can participate individually. Your >> >> > > choice.
>> >> > > Any volunteers? I think it could be an interesting exercise. I >> >> > > have >> >> > > a line of questioning I am interested in exploring.
>> >> > OK, I guess Irish Mike just stopped by to cut and paste his usual >> >> > rant. I take it he won't be participating. We may as well get >> >> > started.
>> >> > Five people have agreed to participate: Lab Rat, Dave the Clueless, >> >> > FL >> >> > Turbo, Jason Pawloski, and my stalker. Naturally, I will continue to >> >> > ignore my stalker. Jason Pawloski says he is going to participate, >> >> > but not follow the ground rules. I would prefer he didn't >> >> > participate >> >> > under those circumstances, but I can't prevent it, so we will just >> >> > use >> >> > him as our control in this experiment. He will represent the typical >> >> > climate change denier, unencumbered by logic, common sense, or a >> >> > firm >> >> > grasp on the subject matter.
>> >> > I suppose the best place to start is the same place I'd start with >> >> > any >> >> > expert witness. What I need from each of you is an outline of your >> >> > qualifications in this field. Can you please summarize your CV as it >> >> > relates to climate science, specifically, the advanced degrees you >> >> > hold in the atmospheric sciences, a list of the papers you have >> >> > published in peer reviewed earth science journals, and a brief >> >> > summary >> >> > of your work experience in the field of climatology.
>> >> No background in climatology. Dual degree in Chemistry & Biotechnology >> >> with honours in Chemistry. Have taught university level courses in >> >> Thermochemistry, Kinetics & Thermodynamics, and have a reasonable >> >> physical >> >> chemistry background.
>> > Is it better to splash beer into the bottom of the glass or pour it >> > down >> > the side of the glass?
>> American beer or Australian beer?
> American lager. I doubt that Australian beer is of very good quality. > Those Aussies would drink rubbing alcohol if it was the only way they > could think of to get blind drunk.
Since you are American, I will overlook that particular piece of blasphemy - most yanks wouldn't know a good beer if it bit them.
So, next question - bottled or keg? And how clean is the glass?
>> American lager. I doubt that Australian beer is of very good quality. >> Those Aussies would drink rubbing alcohol if it was the only way they >> could think of to get blind drunk.
> Since you are American, I will overlook that particular piece of > blasphemy - most yanks wouldn't know a good beer if it bit them.
> So, next question - bottled or keg? And how clean is the glass?
My wife and I travel to Australia between Thanksgiving and Christmas ... the best Australian beer is __________ ?
[We also visit NZ ... do they have beer? I hope so.]
On Nov 4, 7:22 am, "da pickle" <jcpickels@(nospam)hotmail.com> wrote:
> My wife and I travel to Australia between Thanksgiving and Christmas > ... the best Australian beer is __________ ?
> [We also visit NZ ... do they have beer? I hope so.]
VB is the standard, drinkable but not to everyones taste. Carlton Draught is possible the best mainstream beer on tap (tap only!) Any of the Boags beers will do nicely thank you, tap or bottle Coopers make a fine range of traditional beers (pale ale, sparkling ale etc) Lots of very good micro brewery beers around. You coming to Sydney?
> >> American lager. I doubt that Australian beer is of very good quality. > >> Those Aussies would drink rubbing alcohol if it was the only way they > >> could think of to get blind drunk.
> > Since you are American, I will overlook that particular piece of > > blasphemy - most yanks wouldn't know a good beer if it bit them.
> > So, next question - bottled or keg? And how clean is the glass?
> My wife and I travel to Australia between Thanksgiving and Christmas > ... the best Australian beer is __________ ?
> [We also visit NZ ... do they have beer? I hope so.]
We will be there sometime in February so that question interests me also. We hope to fly into Melbourne and take 10 days or so driving up to Bribane to catch a flight back to Thailand.
> My wife and I travel to Australia between Thanksgiving and Christmas > ... the best Australian beer is __________ ?
> [We also visit NZ ... do they have beer? I hope so.]
VB is the standard, drinkable but not to everyones taste. Carlton Draught is possible the best mainstream beer on tap (tap only!) Any of the Boags beers will do nicely thank you, tap or bottle Coopers make a fine range of traditional beers (pale ale, sparkling ale etc) Lots of very good micro brewery beers around. You coming to Sydney? =================================
Thanks, Adam. We fly in from Ayers Rock to Sydney on Saturday, December 5 ... arrive at about 5pm staying at the Grace Hotel. Dinner that evening is at the Summit Restaurant. We depart by ship the next evening. Is there a casino for poker in Sydney?
> > My wife and I travel to Australia between Thanksgiving and Christmas > > ... the best Australian beer is __________ ?
> > [We also visit NZ ... do they have beer? I hope so.]
> VB is the standard, drinkable but not to everyones taste. > Carlton Draught is possible the best mainstream beer on tap (tap > only!) > Any of the Boags beers will do nicely thank you, tap or bottle > Coopers make a fine range of traditional beers (pale ale, sparkling > ale etc) > Lots of very good micro brewery beers around. > You coming to Sydney? > =================================
> Thanks, Adam. We fly in from Ayers Rock to Sydney on Saturday, December 5 > ... arrive at about 5pm staying at the Grace Hotel. Dinner that evening is > at the Summit Restaurant. We depart by ship the next evening. Is there a > casino for poker in Sydney?
Quick vist, you should do a harbour cruise (1 to 2 hrs), nice way to see the sights. Yes there is a casino with poker, Star City, couple of blocks from your hotel over the Darling Harbour bridge. TBH, given that you are here for such short time I wouldn't waste any of it in there.
> Thanks, Adam. We fly in from Ayers Rock to Sydney on Saturday, December 5 > ... arrive at about 5pm staying at the Grace Hotel. Dinner that evening is > at the Summit Restaurant. We depart by ship the next evening. Is there a > casino for poker in Sydney?
Quick vist, you should do a harbour cruise (1 to 2 hrs), nice way to see the sights. Yes there is a casino with poker, Star City, couple of blocks from your hotel over the Darling Harbour bridge. TBH, given that you are here for such short time I wouldn't waste any of it in there. ============================
We will be gone for over three weeks ... but it is a lot like "It's Tuesday, this must be Belgium."
We try and make one of these trips every year, but we also make some longer stays in one area. It is hard to see the world in one lifetime without cutting some corners on complete coverage. A couple of days in Cairns, a couple out at Ayers Rock and a couple in Sydney ... a day in Melbourne ... a day in Tasmania ... and over two weeks in a bunch of places in New Zealand ... that is a quick trip for so much area. I may not ever get to return to Australia. It is like folks that visit New York and Disney World and try to make some sort of conclusion about the USA. There are so many more places that I would like to visit ... even if it is a short trip. I have briefly visited Shanghai, Xian and Beijing but I have never been to Singapore or Hong Kong or so many other places ... what to do.
I am 64 and Dianne and I are trying to enjoy many of these trips to as many different places as possible. The choice is always whether we return to places we really like a lot (like Las Vegas) or try other places ... we choose both!
Thanks again for the information. The casino looks like a short walk from the hotel; however, the big tournament main event is finishing on Sat and Sun ... will that make the poker room better or worse?
> No, you would have been weeded out because of your professional > expertise. It was never going to be about debating the science per se. > I am not a scientist. I wanted to explore the correlation between > political beliefs and climate change skepticism among laypeople. You > have earned your right to have an informed opinion, and I am certainly > in no position to challenge it except on the most superficial level.
> Let me ask you this though. I'm sure you are familiar with the > findings and conclusions of the IPCC, and it sounds like your opinion > diverges markedly from theirs. Being a gambling man, where would you > set the odds that their conclusions are closer to the truth than > yours?
I have actually given this question a lot of thought over the last couple of days. I can't put a figure on the odds, because it depends on the actual conclusion that you mean. Humans definitely contribute to climate change. I am going to revisit the latest IPCC report, because, from memory, they dismiss short-lived greenhouse gases as irrelevant, and focus on long lived GHG's. I think this is a very poor model. One of the reasons why is that sulphur oxides are very potent GHG's, and the apparent sudden end to the period of extreme warming seems to coincide with the end of the phasing in of low-sulphur fuels and emissions control in Europe. Add to that the beginning of declining CFC concentrations. CO2 absorbs across such a small part of the spectrum, a part also dominated by water vapour (also mostly ignored by the IPCC, despite making up most of the emissions from IC engines) that it simply does not make sense to me to blame it on GW. Historical CO2 levels support this viewpoint, and no model based on CO2 warming has ever had any predictive power at all.
Glaciers are definitely retreating across most of the world. Remember though, that the Maunder Minimum went for nearly 400 years, and one would expect that glaciers would have grown markedly during that period, so it is nor surprising really that they are shrinking now. There are tales of the Vikings growing crops on Greenland prior to the MM. The other factor that seems to have been almost actively ignored is the decrease in albedo of ice laid down during the worst of the industrial revolution due to soot and again sulphurous acids in the ice. Small decreases in albedo greatly affect melt rates. So do even small concentrations of soluble contaminants - eg acid rain. Many of these glaciers take hundreds of years or more to flow from source to melt, so dirty snow would have a huge lag effect.
Interestingly, I suggested a study on this to a fellow chemist (also a CO2 sceptic, and at the time head of chemistry where I worked). He agreed it would be an interesting study, then basically said it would never get funded because it would be an unpopular explanation. It doesn't pay to swim against the tide, if you want to keep your funding.
I do believe we should be looking at ways to control CO2 release, but not for GW reasons - it is simply not reasonable to continue to dump waste into the atmosphere uncontrollably. The end of cheap petroleum will go some way toward that, provided a suitable transportation alternative becomes available, and synthetic fuels generated via nuclear or renewable energy sources should be CO2 neutral.
I guess I'm a little depressed that the IPCC reports seem to be documents written to justify why CO2 is the villain, rather than investigations into what is. Just my 2c.
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> > No, you would have been weeded out because of your professional > > expertise. It was never going to be about debating the science per se. > > I am not a scientist. I wanted to explore the correlation between > > political beliefs and climate change skepticism among laypeople. You > > have earned your right to have an informed opinion, and I am certainly > > in no position to challenge it except on the most superficial level.
> > Let me ask you this though. I'm sure you are familiar with the > > findings and conclusions of the IPCC, and it sounds like your opinion > > diverges markedly from theirs. Being a gambling man, where would you > > set the odds that their conclusions are closer to the truth than > > yours?
> I have actually given this question a lot of thought over the last couple > of days. I can't put a figure on the odds, because it depends on the > actual conclusion that you mean. Humans definitely contribute to climate > change. I am going to revisit the latest IPCC report, because, from > memory, they dismiss short-lived greenhouse gases as irrelevant, and focus > on long lived GHG's. I think this is a very poor model. One of the reasons > why is that sulphur oxides are very potent GHG's, and the apparent sudden > end to the period of extreme warming seems to coincide with the end of the > phasing in of low-sulphur fuels and emissions control in Europe. Add to > that the beginning of declining CFC concentrations. CO2 absorbs across > such a small part of the spectrum, a part also dominated by water vapour > (also mostly ignored by the IPCC, despite making up most of the emissions > from IC engines) that it simply does not make sense to me to blame it on > GW. Historical CO2 levels support this viewpoint, and no model based on > CO2 warming has ever had any predictive power at all.
> Glaciers are definitely retreating across most of the world. Remember > though, that the Maunder Minimum went for nearly 400 years, and one would > expect that glaciers would have grown markedly during that period, so it > is nor surprising really that they are shrinking now. There are tales of > the Vikings growing crops on Greenland prior to the MM. The other factor > that seems to have been almost actively ignored is the decrease in albedo > of ice laid down during the worst of the industrial revolution due to soot > and again sulphurous acids in the ice. Small decreases in albedo greatly > affect melt rates. So do even small concentrations of soluble contaminants > - eg acid rain. Many of these glaciers take hundreds of years or more to > flow from source to melt, so dirty snow would have a huge lag effect.
> Interestingly, I suggested a study on this to a fellow chemist (also a CO2 > sceptic, and at the time head of chemistry where I worked). He agreed it > would be an interesting study, then basically said it would never get > funded because it would be an unpopular explanation. It doesn't pay to > swim against the tide, if you want to keep your funding.
> I do believe we should be looking at ways to control CO2 release, but not > for GW reasons - it is simply not reasonable to continue to dump waste > into the atmosphere uncontrollably. The end of cheap petroleum will go > some way toward that, provided a suitable transportation alternative > becomes available, and synthetic fuels generated via nuclear or renewable > energy sources should be CO2 neutral.
> I guess I'm a little depressed that the IPCC reports seem to be documents > written to justify why CO2 is the villain, rather than investigations into > what is. Just my 2c.
> On Oct 29 2009 11:38 PM, NotBillB wrote: > I have actually given this question a lot of thought over the last > couple > of days. I can't put a figure on the odds, because it depends on the > actual conclusion that you mean. Humans definitely contribute to > climate > change. I am going to revisit the latest IPCC report, because, from > memory, they dismiss short-lived greenhouse gases as irrelevant, and > focus > on long lived GHG's. I think this is a very poor model. One of the > reasons > why is that sulphur oxides are very potent GHG's, and the apparent > sudden > end to the period of extreme warming seems to coincide with the end > of the > phasing in of low-sulphur fuels and emissions control in Europe. Add > to > that the beginning of declining CFC concentrations. CO2 absorbs > across > such a small part of the spectrum, a part also dominated by water > vapour > (also mostly ignored by the IPCC, despite making up most of the > emissions > from IC engines) that it simply does not make sense to me to blame > it on > GW. Historical CO2 levels support this viewpoint, and no model based > on > CO2 warming has ever had any predictive power at all.
> Glaciers are definitely retreating across most of the world. > Remember > though, that the Maunder Minimum went for nearly 400 years, and one > would > expect that glaciers would have grown markedly during that period, > so it > is nor surprising really that they are shrinking now. There are > tales of > the Vikings growing crops on Greenland prior to the MM. The other > factor > that seems to have been almost actively ignored is the decrease in > albedo > of ice laid down during the worst of the industrial revolution due > to soot > and again sulphurous acids in the ice. Small decreases in albedo > greatly > affect melt rates. So do even small concentrations of soluble > contaminants > - eg acid rain. Many of these glaciers take hundreds of years or > more to > flow from source to melt, so dirty snow would have a huge lag > effect.
> Interestingly, I suggested a study on this to a fellow chemist (also > a CO2 > sceptic, and at the time head of chemistry where I worked). He > agreed it > would be an interesting study, then basically said it would never > get > funded because it would be an unpopular explanation. It doesn't pay > to > swim against the tide, if you want to keep your funding.
> I do believe we should be looking at ways to control CO2 release, > but not > for GW reasons - it is simply not reasonable to continue to dump > waste > into the atmosphere uncontrollably. The end of cheap petroleum will > go > some way toward that, provided a suitable transportation alternative > becomes available, and synthetic fuels generated via nuclear or > renewable > energy sources should be CO2 neutral.
> I guess I'm a little depressed that the IPCC reports seem to be > documents > written to justify why CO2 is the villain, rather than > investigations into > what is. Just my 2c.
What I was getting at is that even if you are so-called "skeptic", and a well informed one at that, a reasonable skeptic, given the current state of scientific opinion, has to realize that there is at least a significant chance that he is wrong and all these prestigious climate science and earth science organizations are right about the rather grave risks posed to modern human civilization by global climate change. If you look at it from a risk/benefit/cost analysis, you don't have to be sure they are right, you don't have to be confident they are right, you just have to acknowledge that there is a reasonable chance they are right, and the prudent course of action is dictated. There is little downside to reducing greenhouse gases, and pollution in general, to what are believed to be "safe" levels, except for a few percent temporary hit on GDP. The downside is that if you dismiss such science supported warnings, and continue to increase pollution, there's the very real possibility of economic disaster and great human suffering over large swaths of the planet. It doesn't seem to me to be that hard a choice. Further, I tend to think there's a significant benefit to reducing greenhouse gases in that it will drive us to find new, more sustainable technologies, that are going to be required in fairly short order anyway. Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.
> What I was getting at is that even if you are so-called "skeptic", and a > well informed one at that, a reasonable skeptic, given the current state > of scientific opinion, has to realize that there is at least a significant > chance that he is wrong and all these prestigious climate science and > earth science organizations are right about the rather grave risks posed > to modern human civilization by global climate change. If you look at it > from a risk/benefit/cost analysis, you don't have to be sure they are > right, you don't have to be confident they are right, you just have to > acknowledge that there is a reasonable chance they are right, and the > prudent course of action is dictated. There is little downside to reducing > greenhouse gases, and pollution in general, to what are believed to be > "safe" levels, except for a few percent temporary hit on GDP. The downside > is that if you dismiss such science supported warnings, and continue to > increase pollution, there's the very real possibility of economic disaster > and great human suffering over large swaths of the planet. It doesn't seem > to me to be that hard a choice. Further, I tend to think there's a > significant benefit to reducing greenhouse gases in that it will drive us > to find new, more sustainable technologies, that are going to be required > in fairly short order anyway. Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.
Some of us knew that you were not up to an informed opinion to the contrary of your own.
You make more assumptions in one paragraph than Beldin in a whole thread!
> > Thanks, Adam. We fly in from Ayers Rock to Sydney on Saturday, December 5 > > ... arrive at about 5pm staying at the Grace Hotel. Dinner that evening is > > at the Summit Restaurant. We depart by ship the next evening. Is there a > > casino for poker in Sydney?
> Quick vist, you should do a harbour cruise (1 to 2 hrs), nice way to > see the sights. > Yes there is a casino with poker, Star City, couple of blocks from > your hotel over the Darling Harbour bridge. TBH, given that you are > here for such short time I wouldn't waste any of it in there. > ============================
> We will be gone for over three weeks ... but it is a lot like "It's Tuesday, > this must be Belgium."
> We try and make one of these trips every year, but we also make some longer > stays in one area. It is hard to see the world in one lifetime without > cutting some corners on complete coverage. A couple of days in Cairns, a > couple out at Ayers Rock and a couple in Sydney ... a day in Melbourne ... a > day in Tasmania ... and over two weeks in a bunch of places in New Zealand > ... that is a quick trip for so much area. I may not ever get to return to > Australia. It is like folks that visit New York and Disney World and try to > make some sort of conclusion about the USA. There are so many more places > that I would like to visit ... even if it is a short trip. I have briefly > visited Shanghai, Xian and Beijing but I have never been to Singapore or > Hong Kong or so many other places ... what to do.
> I am 64 and Dianne and I are trying to enjoy many of these trips to as many > different places as possible. The choice is always whether we return to > places we really like a lot (like Las Vegas) or try other places ... we > choose both!
> Thanks again for the information. The casino looks like a short walk from > the hotel; however, the big tournament main event is finishing on Sat and > Sun ... will that make the poker room better or worse?
I'm tipping worse but I never go there so I'm not the best person to ask (after working in them for 20yrs I have developed an aversion to casinos). What I would recommend however is lunch in the open air cafe by the Opera House followed by a 30 min walk north along the water (past the ferry terminals) from there to the Rocks area, then a beer in the Fortune of War Hotel (137 George Street, The Rocks NSW 2000) and then a wander around the weekend market that will be on in that area. Do that and you will have a sense of having 'seen' Sydney as well as a lot of nice photo opps. Or go to star city and see yet another dingy poker room that could be anywhere.
> Thanks again for the information. The casino looks like a short walk from > the hotel; however, the big tournament main event is finishing on Sat and > Sun ... will that make the poker room better or worse?
I'm tipping worse but I never go there so I'm not the best person to ask (after working in them for 20yrs I have developed an aversion to casinos). What I would recommend however is lunch in the open air cafe by the Opera House followed by a 30 min walk north along the water (past the ferry terminals) from there to the Rocks area, then a beer in the Fortune of War Hotel (137 George Street, The Rocks NSW 2000) and then a wander around the weekend market that will be on in that area. Do that and you will have a sense of having 'seen' Sydney as well as a lot of nice photo opps. Or go to star city and see yet another dingy poker room that could be anywhere. ===========================
Thanks for the "tips" ... I doubt that we will have time to even visit the casino ... we still collect chips so I might pop in for a moment. I hope we get to see the market; I know we will visit the Opera House and the walk sounds great.
>> > No, you would have been weeded out because of your professional >> > expertise. It was never going to be about debating the science per se. >> > I am not a scientist. I wanted to explore the correlation between >> > political beliefs and climate change skepticism among laypeople. You >> > have earned your right to have an informed opinion, and I am certainly >> > in no position to challenge it except on the most superficial level.
>> > Let me ask you this though. I'm sure you are familiar with the >> > findings and conclusions of the IPCC, and it sounds like your opinion >> > diverges markedly from theirs. Being a gambling man, where would you >> > set the odds that their conclusions are closer to the truth than >> > yours?
>> I have actually given this question a lot of thought over the last couple >> of days. I can't put a figure on the odds, because it depends on the >> actual conclusion that you mean. Humans definitely contribute to climate >> change. I am going to revisit the latest IPCC report, because, from >> memory, they dismiss short-lived greenhouse gases as irrelevant, and >> focus >> on long lived GHG's. I think this is a very poor model. One of the >> reasons >> why is that sulphur oxides are very potent GHG's, and the apparent sudden >> end to the period of extreme warming seems to coincide with the end of >> the >> phasing in of low-sulphur fuels and emissions control in Europe. Add to >> that the beginning of declining CFC concentrations. CO2 absorbs across >> such a small part of the spectrum, a part also dominated by water vapour >> (also mostly ignored by the IPCC, despite making up most of the emissions >> from IC engines) that it simply does not make sense to me to blame it on >> GW. Historical CO2 levels support this viewpoint, and no model based on >> CO2 warming has ever had any predictive power at all.
>> Glaciers are definitely retreating across most of the world. Remember >> though, that the Maunder Minimum went for nearly 400 years, and one would >> expect that glaciers would have grown markedly during that period, so it >> is nor surprising really that they are shrinking now. There are tales of >> the Vikings growing crops on Greenland prior to the MM. The other factor >> that seems to have been almost actively ignored is the decrease in albedo >> of ice laid down during the worst of the industrial revolution due to >> soot >> and again sulphurous acids in the ice. Small decreases in albedo greatly >> affect melt rates. So do even small concentrations of soluble >> contaminants >> - eg acid rain. Many of these glaciers take hundreds of years or more to >> flow from source to melt, so dirty snow would have a huge lag effect.
>> Interestingly, I suggested a study on this to a fellow chemist (also a >> CO2 >> sceptic, and at the time head of chemistry where I worked). He agreed it >> would be an interesting study, then basically said it would never get >> funded because it would be an unpopular explanation. It doesn't pay to >> swim against the tide, if you want to keep your funding.
>> I do believe we should be looking at ways to control CO2 release, but not >> for GW reasons - it is simply not reasonable to continue to dump waste >> into the atmosphere uncontrollably. The end of cheap petroleum will go >> some way toward that, provided a suitable transportation alternative >> becomes available, and synthetic fuels generated via nuclear or renewable >> energy sources should be CO2 neutral.
>> I guess I'm a little depressed that the IPCC reports seem to be documents >> written to justify why CO2 is the villain, rather than investigations >> into >> what is. Just my 2c.
> i prefer religious fanatics to real scientists.
> mo_charles
Unfortunately, the two are not mutually exclusive.
> > Thanks again for the information. The casino looks like a short walk from > > the hotel; however, the big tournament main event is finishing on Sat and > > Sun ... will that make the poker room better or worse?
> I'm tipping worse but I never go there so I'm not the best person to > ask (after working in them for 20yrs I have developed an aversion to > casinos). > What I would recommend however is lunch in the open air cafe by the > Opera House followed by a 30 min walk north along the water (past the > ferry terminals) from there to the Rocks area, then a beer in the > Fortune of War Hotel (137 George Street, The Rocks NSW 2000) and then > a wander around the weekend market that will be on in that area. > Do that and you will have a sense of having 'seen' Sydney as well as a > lot of nice photo opps. > Or go to star city and see yet another dingy poker room that could be > anywhere. > ===========================
> Thanks for the "tips" ... I doubt that we will have time to even visit the > casino ... we still collect chips so I might pop in for a moment. I hope we > get to see the market; I know we will visit the Opera House and the walk > sounds great.
> Thanks again for the information.
How long will you be in Cairns? Can probably recommend some worthwhile things to do depending on time.
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>> > Thanks again for the information. The casino looks like a short walk >> > from >> > the hotel; however, the big tournament main event is finishing on Sat >> > and >> > Sun ... will that make the poker room better or worse?
>> I'm tipping worse but I never go there so I'm not the best person to >> ask (after working in them for 20yrs I have developed an aversion to >> casinos). >> What I would recommend however is lunch in the open air cafe by the >> Opera House followed by a 30 min walk north along the water (past the >> ferry terminals) from there to the Rocks area, then a beer in the >> Fortune of War Hotel (137 George Street, The Rocks NSW 2000) and then >> a wander around the weekend market that will be on in that area. >> Do that and you will have a sense of having 'seen' Sydney as well as a >> lot of nice photo opps. >> Or go to star city and see yet another dingy poker room that could be >> anywhere. >> ===========================
>> Thanks for the "tips" ... I doubt that we will have time to even visit >> the >> casino ... we still collect chips so I might pop in for a moment. I hope >> we >> get to see the market; I know we will visit the Opera House and the walk >> sounds great.
>> Thanks again for the information.
> How long will you be in Cairns? Can probably recommend some worthwhile > things to do depending on time.
It is one of those trips for us old people so almost everything is preplanned and prepaid and we move with our small group like ... well, lab rats. (There are twenty of us.)
We arrive in Cairns (is it really pronounced CANS?) at 9:10am on Monday, November 30 ... we have been in the air or changing planes for 24 hours. (I sleep anywhere anytime but I doubt that my wife can do as well as I.) We check in at the Novotel Oasis Cairns and I presume if we can get our rooms before normal check in at 2pm many will go to sleep. We have the afternoon free. We depart Cairns on Thursday morning.
Monday evening we go to the Night Zoo and have a BBQ dinner there.
Tuesday morning is the Kuranda Scenic Railway to Kuranda and then to the Skyway Rainforest Cableway. We finish and allegedly arrive back at the hotel at about 4:30 and have a little free time before dinner at Oliver's.
Wednesday morning we cruise out to Green Island. We have about 5 or 6 hours on Green Island. I would like to try the "semi-submarines" ... know anything about them? If not that, we may just snorkel around. We have a big lunch on Green Island and return about 5pm and have the evening free. The Reef Casino is apparently close by our hotel. Do they have poker? The Esplanade has been suggested. Any suggestions for that evening would be appreciated. We leave the following morning.
On Nov 4, 12:12 pm, Alim Nassor <alimnas...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > My wife and I travel to Australia between Thanksgiving and Christmas > > ... the best Australian beer is __________ ?
> > [We also visit NZ ... do they have beer? I hope so.]
> We will be there sometime in February so that question interests me > also. We hope to fly into Melbourne and take 10 days or so driving up > to Bribane to catch a flight back to Thailand
As Lab Rat mentions, Boags or Coopers are the best beers made on a mass scale. For something slightly more exclusive, see if you can hunt out any Matilda Bay or Little Creatures Pale Ale. Grand Ridge makes a few styles, with the Moonshine packing a decent punch.
For your drive north, stick to the coast where possible. After leaving Melbourne your best to travel on a path that takes you through Sale and Lakes Entrance in Victoria, then to Merimbula, Batemans Bay & Sydney in NSW. ie Give Canberra a miss. Then head to Brisbane in Queensland via Coffs Harbour. Plenty of interesting side journeys on the way if you have time.
> at 9:10am on Monday, November 30 ... we have been in the air or changing > planes for 24 hours. (I sleep anywhere anytime but I doubt that my wife > can do as well as I.) We check in at the Novotel Oasis Cairns and I > presume if we can get our rooms before normal check in at 2pm many will go > to sleep. We have the afternoon free. We depart Cairns on Thursday > morning.
> Monday evening we go to the Night Zoo and have a BBQ dinner there.
> Tuesday morning is the Kuranda Scenic Railway to Kuranda and then to the > Skyway Rainforest Cableway. We finish and allegedly arrive back at the > hotel at about 4:30 and have a little free time before dinner at Oliver's.
> Wednesday morning we cruise out to Green Island. We have about 5 or 6 > hours on Green Island. I would like to try the "semi-submarines" ... know > anything about them? If not that, we may just snorkel around. We have a > big lunch on Green Island and return about 5pm and have the evening free. > The Reef Casino is apparently close by our hotel. Do they have poker? > The Esplanade has been suggested. Any suggestions for that evening would > be appreciated. We leave the following morning.
> Are you in or near Cairns?
Townsville, about 400km south. That is not a bad itinery, actually. I was going to suggest the skyrail (that is the Kuranda trip) and Green Island, the semis are sort of extended glass-bottom boats. The Low Isles have better coral for snorkelling, but Green Island isn't bad. There is a school of turrum up to nearly 2m that live about the jetty, snorkelling in with them is an experience, especially with a couple of chicken frames for company.
Wear sunscreen. LOTS of sunscreen, and replace it often - Northern Australia is the skin cancer capital of the world, you will burn very fast. If you are snorkelling, buy a stinger suit and gloves - the ferry peple will tell you there are no stingers on Green - this is not always true. Don't swim in the sea without a singer suit. Seriously. The gloves are to avoid coral cuts when you get the urge to pick stuff up off of the bottom of the sea, you would be amazed just how much marine life can bite, scratch, poke or spew sticky entrails over you. (If you are experienced snorkellers I apologise for boring you).
You can rent snorkelling gear on the ferry. Take an old pair of socks for wearing under the fins.
I'll try to find out about the casino for you.
The Night Markets are good for a stroll and a shop, and try the crocodile steak if you get a chance.
>> We arrive in Cairns (is it really pronounced CANS?)
> Yep.
>> Are you in or near Cairns? > Townsville, about 400km south. That is not a bad itinery, actually. I was > going to suggest the skyrail (that is the Kuranda trip) and Green Island, > the semis are sort of extended glass-bottom boats. The Low Isles have > better coral for snorkelling, but Green Island isn't bad. There is a > school of turrum up to nearly 2m that live about the jetty, snorkelling in > with them is an experience, especially with a couple of chicken frames for > company.
I was hoping the semis were individual bubble topped riding thingees. I have seen photographs of these things and they look like they would be interesting. They are fully submurged and air is delivered to the bubble without the need for scuba training or gear. You are not really contained inside the thing, more like sitting on it with your head in the bubble.
I heard they might be available on Green Island. I have not been able to confirm their availability.
> Wear sunscreen. LOTS of sunscreen, and replace it often - Northern > Australia is the skin cancer capital of the world, you will burn very > fast. If you are snorkelling, buy a stinger suit and gloves - the ferry > peple will tell you there are no stingers on Green - this is not always > true. Don't swim in the sea without a singer suit. Seriously. The gloves > are to avoid coral cuts when you get the urge to pick stuff up off of the > bottom of the sea, you would be amazed just how much marine life can bite, > scratch, poke or spew sticky entrails over you. (If you are experienced > snorkellers I apologise for boring you).
We are not experienced snorkellers ... and I do not know what a stinger suit might be. Is that what we might call a wet suit or a dry suit? I presume a stinger is our jellyfish. I lived on the beach in Miami for many years and as a youngster was paid a bounty for every jellyfish we brought to the lifeguards. If the jellies were "in" there was a lot of money to be made but most of the time, they were not a problem. Some were a nuisance and others were a real danger.
I doubt I would even rent a wet suit for such a short visit ... if they were even available.
> You can rent snorkelling gear on the ferry. Take an old pair of socks for > wearing under the fins.
I have never worn socks under fins ... that is a good idea.
> I'll try to find out about the casino for you.
> The Night Markets are good for a stroll and a shop, and try the crocodile > steak if you get a chance.
> Above all, have a great trip.
Where are the night markets? I believe crocodile steak is on the menu of two of the restaurants we plan to visit.
I am from Louisiana and alligator is a staple ... I don't think it tastes like chicken at all.
> >> We arrive in Cairns (is it really pronounced CANS?)
> > Yep.
> >> Are you in or near Cairns? > > Townsville, about 400km south. That is not a bad itinery, actually. I was > > going to suggest the skyrail (that is the Kuranda trip) and Green Island, > > the semis are sort of extended glass-bottom boats. The Low Isles have > > better coral for snorkelling, but Green Island isn't bad. There is a > > school of turrum up to nearly 2m that live about the jetty, snorkelling in > > with them is an experience, especially with a couple of chicken frames for > > company.
> I was hoping the semis were individual bubble topped riding thingees. I > have seen photographs of these things and they look like they would be > interesting. They are fully submurged and air is delivered to the bubble > without the need for scuba training or gear. You are not really contained > inside the thing, more like sitting on it with your head in the bubble.
> I heard they might be available on Green Island. I have not been able to > confirm their availability.
Not sure. They weren't last time we were up there, but that was a few years ago. Will make some enquirys.
> > Wear sunscreen. LOTS of sunscreen, and replace it often - Northern > > Australia is the skin cancer capital of the world, you will burn very > > fast. If you are snorkelling, buy a stinger suit and gloves - the ferry > > peple will tell you there are no stingers on Green - this is not always > > true. Don't swim in the sea without a singer suit. Seriously. The gloves > > are to avoid coral cuts when you get the urge to pick stuff up off of the > > bottom of the sea, you would be amazed just how much marine life can bite, > > scratch, poke or spew sticky entrails over you. (If you are experienced > > snorkellers I apologise for boring you).
> We are not experienced snorkellers ... and I do not know what a stinger suit > might be. Is that what we might call a wet suit or a dry suit? I presume a > stinger is our jellyfish.
A stinger suit is a light all over body suit, usually lycra or similar I think. Stingers are indeed jellyfish. Google 'box jellyfish' and irukandji. Box jellyfish, or sea wasps are the single most venomous critter on the planet. Very rare on Green, common close to the coast. Irukandji are everywhere, last time we were on Green Isle a tourist did get stung by one. Not pleasant at all. If you don't wear a stinger suit, wear a light t shirt, preferably with long sleeves.
> I lived on the beach in Miami for many years and > as a youngster was paid a bounty for every jellyfish we brought to the > lifeguards. If the jellies were "in" there was a lot of money to be made > but most of the time, they were not a problem. Some were a nuisance and > others were a real danger.
> I doubt I would even rent a wet suit for such a short visit ... if they were > even available.
> > You can rent snorkelling gear on the ferry. Take an old pair of socks for > > wearing under the fins.
> I have never worn socks under fins ... that is a good idea.
Saves an awful lot of wear & tear on the feet.
> > I'll try to find out about the casino for you.
> > The Night Markets are good for a stroll and a shop, and try the crocodile > > steak if you get a chance.
> > Above all, have a great trip.
> Where are the night markets? I believe crocodile steak is on the menu of > two of the restaurants we plan to visit.
Can't remember the exact address, but they are in the city. They sell all sorts of touristy crap, from stuffed roos to opals and gold nuggets.
> I am from Louisiana and alligator is a staple ... I don't think it tastes > like chicken at all.
Tastes like goanna ;). Probably very similar to alligator.
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> I was hoping the semis were individual bubble topped riding thingees. I > have seen photographs of these things and they look like they would be > interesting. They are fully submurged and air is delivered to the bubble > without the need for scuba training or gear. You are not really contained > inside the thing, more like sitting on it with your head in the bubble.
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