I'd like to remind everyone that we are *way* closer to a socialist economic system than a true laissez-faire capitalism. The America that we are supposed to love-or-leave has been predominately socialist since everyone (gryphon mostly) has been alive.
Medicare Medicaid pretty much any non-defense/road tax Social Security Earned income schools fire departments police departments public utilities parks bailouts anti-trust legislation public housing public transportation EMTALA price-fixing in the guise of farming subsidies school lunches free clinics etc...
The simple fact is that a very significant portion of your income (punishing productivity - very American) is taken from you and given to others. Sure, most is in the guise of 'public good' and even if you don't have kids those school taxes probably keep some of the ingrates in school or on the field and not robbing your house but you don't have a choice. But to even suggest that America is a capitalist nation (some elements sure but probably not even the majority) is absurd.
> I'd like to remind everyone that we are *way* closer to a socialist > economic system than a true laissez-faire capitalism. The America that we > are supposed to love-or-leave has been predominately socialist since > everyone (gryphon mostly) has been alive.
> Medicare > Medicaid > pretty much any non-defense/road tax > Social Security > Earned income > schools > fire departments > police departments > public utilities > parks > bailouts > anti-trust legislation > public housing > public transportation > EMTALA > price-fixing in the guise of farming subsidies > school lunches > free clinics > etc...
> The simple fact is that a very significant portion of your income > (punishing productivity - very American) is taken from you and given to > others. Sure, most is in the guise of 'public good' and even if you don't > have kids those school taxes probably keep some of the ingrates in school > or on the field and not robbing your house but you don't have a choice. > But to even suggest that America is a capitalist nation (some elements > sure but probably not even the majority) is absurd.
to suggest that you are using the correct definition of "capitalist" would be more absurd, but no one here is tom-fool enough to do that.
>> I'd like to remind everyone that we are *way* closer to a socialist >> economic system than a true laissez-faire capitalism. The America that >> we are supposed to love-or-leave has been predominately socialist since >> everyone (gryphon mostly) has been alive.
>> Medicare >> Medicaid >> pretty much any non-defense/road tax >> Social Security >> Earned income >> schools >> fire departments >> police departments >> public utilities >> parks >> bailouts >> anti-trust legislation >> public housing >> public transportation >> EMTALA >> price-fixing in the guise of farming subsidies >> school lunches >> free clinics >> etc...
>> The simple fact is that a very significant portion of your income >> (punishing productivity - very American) is taken from you and given to >> others. Sure, most is in the guise of 'public good' and even if you >> don't have kids those school taxes probably keep some of the ingrates in >> school or on the field and not robbing your house but you don't have a >> choice. But to even suggest that America is a capitalist nation (some >> elements sure but probably not even the majority) is absurd.
> to suggest that you are using the correct definition of "capitalist" would > be more absurd, but no one here is tom-fool enough to do that.
I'll retract if you can convince me that we have:
"investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market."
> I'll retract if you can convince me that we have:
> "investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, > production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by > competition in a free market."
Sure we do. You have the freedom to put your kids in the school of your choice, live where you want to live, live where you like the police/fire and other services you value, drive on roads that are maintained, etc.
> On Nov 4, 1:24 pm, "Mhoram" <S...@WGW.NET> wrote: >> I'll retract if you can convince me that we have:
>> "investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, >> production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by >> competition in a free market."
> Sure we do. You have the freedom to put your kids in the school of > your choice, live where you want to live, live where you like the > police/fire and other services you value, drive on roads that are > maintained, etc.
> On Nov 4, 1:24 pm, "Mhoram" <S...@WGW.NET> wrote: >> I'll retract if you can convince me that we have:
>> "investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, >> production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by >> competition in a free market."
> Sure we do. You have the freedom to put your kids in the school of > your choice, live where you want to live, live where you like the > police/fire and other services you value, drive on roads that are > maintained, etc.
Not the free market.
Especially the schools.
LG -- If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert in five years there would be a shortage of sand. - Milton Friedman
> > On Nov 4, 1:24 pm, "Mhoram" <S...@WGW.NET> wrote: > >> I'll retract if you can convince me that we have:
> >> "investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, > >> production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by > >> competition in a free market."
> > Sure we do. You have the freedom to put your kids in the school of > > your choice, live where you want to live, live where you like the > > police/fire and other services you value, drive on roads that are > > maintained, etc.
> Not the free market.
> Especially the schools.
> LG > -- > If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert in five > years there would be a shortage of sand. - Milton Friedman
it is true that we don't have a 100% pure capitalist society. There are still some regulations and many of us think that's a good thing. Many of us feel there should be more. Credit card rates, for example, left unregulated would be devastating to the middle class but very good for the credit card company owners.
But yeah, technically speaking it is not a "capitalist" country but then neither is it a "socialist" country. There are elements of both.
> > On Nov 4, 1:24 pm, "Mhoram" <S...@WGW.NET> wrote: > >> I'll retract if you can convince me that we have:
> >> "investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, > >> production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by > >> competition in a free market."
> > Sure we do. You have the freedom to put your kids in the school of > > your choice, live where you want to live, live where you like the > > police/fire and other services you value, drive on roads that are > > maintained, etc.
> Not the free market.
> Especially the schools.
> LG > -- > If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert in five > years there would be a shortage of sand. - Milton Friedman
it is true that we don't have a 100% pure capitalist society. There are still some regulations and many of us think that's a good thing. Many of us feel there should be more. Credit card rates, for example, left unregulated would be devastating to the middle class but very good for the credit card company owners.
But yeah, technically speaking it is not a "capitalist" country but then neither is it a "socialist" country. There are elements of both. *****************************
That was my initial point: people forget the whole 'mixed economy' thing we're taught in grade school and the conservative movement has made 'socialism' a buzz word with a definition way outside the scope of Merriam-Webster.
Pick the most socialistic European country you can think of, apply the dictionary definitions of socialism and capitalism, and then compare them to the U.S. I'd say we're closer to the 'socialist' nations of Europe than true capitalism. Sure we're mixed, but we've been mixed for so long that people take certain things for granted as being capitalism when it's really just 'American'.
On Wed, 4 Nov 2009 18:39:30 -0800 (PST), Eric Ramon
<ramon.e...@gmail.com> wrote: > Credit card rates, for example, >left unregulated would be devastating to the middle class but very >good for the credit card company owners.
Rates don't matter to people who have a sense of fiscal discipline.
On Nov 5, 7:52 am, Ea...@bellsouth.net (J. Hugh Sullivan) wrote:
> On Wed, 4 Nov 2009 18:39:30 -0800 (PST), Eric Ramon
> <ramon.e...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Credit card rates, for example, > >left unregulated would be devastating to the middle class but very > >good for the credit card company owners.
> Rates don't matter to people who have a sense of fiscal discipline.
> Hugh
actually credit card companies can and do close accounts on people who pay off their balance every month. There's no money to be made there. To keep your card you need to carry a balance on occasion. If you're a person who always pays off your balance and you've kept your card/s then more power to you.
> On Nov 5, 7:52 am, Ea...@bellsouth.net (J. Hugh Sullivan) wrote:
> > On Wed, 4 Nov 2009 18:39:30 -0800 (PST), Eric Ramon
> > <ramon.e...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Credit card rates, for example, > > >left unregulated would be devastating to the middle class but very > > >good for the credit card company owners.
> > Rates don't matter to people who have a sense of fiscal discipline.
> > Hugh
> actually credit card companies can and do close accounts on people who > pay off their balance every month. There's no money to be made there. > To keep your card you need to carry a balance on occasion. If you're a > person who always pays off your balance and you've kept your card/s > then more power to you.
I haven't paid a penny in credit card interest in the last 12 years at least...and still have the same card.
Credit card companies also make money on the transactions.
<ramon.e...@gmail.com> wrote: >On Nov 5, 7:52=A0am, Ea...@bellsouth.net (J. Hugh Sullivan) wrote: >> On Wed, 4 Nov 2009 18:39:30 -0800 (PST), Eric Ramon
>> <ramon.e...@gmail.com> wrote: >> > Credit card rates, for example, >> >left unregulated would be devastating to the middle class but very >> >good for the credit card company owners.
>> Rates don't matter to people who have a sense of fiscal discipline.
>> Hugh
>actually credit card companies can and do close accounts on people who >pay off their balance every month. There's no money to be made there. >To keep your card you need to carry a balance on occasion. If you're a >person who always pays off your balance and you've kept your card/s >then more power to you.
I pay off every month and have never been cancelled - they just raise my limit. My wife has a separate card but she charges on mine also. Doesn't the merchant pay a fee for their use?
> > > Credit card rates, for example, > > >left unregulated would be devastating to the middle class but very > > >good for the credit card company owners.
> > Rates don't matter to people who have a sense of fiscal discipline.
> > Hugh
> actually credit card companies can and do close accounts on people who > pay off their balance every month. There's no money to be made there. > To keep your card you need to carry a balance on occasion. If you're a > person who always pays off your balance and you've kept your card/s > then more power to you.
< <I haven't paid a penny in credit card interest in the last 12 years at <least...and still have the same card. <
>Credit card companies also make money on the transactions.
And some, like USAA, actually give a rat's ass about the card holders.
One of the biggest scams put over the public was banks lobbying for restrictions on who can join credit unions.
> On Thu, 5 Nov 2009 09:35:15 -0800 (PST), Eric Ramon > <ramon.e...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>On Nov 5, 7:52=A0am, Ea...@bellsouth.net (J. Hugh Sullivan) wrote: >>> On Wed, 4 Nov 2009 18:39:30 -0800 (PST), Eric Ramon
>>> <ramon.e...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> > Credit card rates, for example, >>> >left unregulated would be devastating to the middle class but very >>> >good for the credit card company owners.
>>> Rates don't matter to people who have a sense of fiscal discipline.
>>> Hugh
>>actually credit card companies can and do close accounts on people who >>pay off their balance every month. There's no money to be made there. >>To keep your card you need to carry a balance on occasion. If you're a >>person who always pays off your balance and you've kept your card/s >>then more power to you.
> I pay off every month and have never been cancelled - they just raise > my limit. My wife has a separate card but she charges on mine also. > Doesn't the merchant pay a fee for their use?
Yep... and if you spend enough, they don't care if you pay it off every month.
If you only spend a little bit though - and pay it off every month...
> Ea...@bellsouth.net (J. Hugh Sullivan) wrote in news:4af324ea.20808578 > @news.eternal-september.org:
> > On Thu, 5 Nov 2009 09:35:15 -0800 (PST), Eric Ramon > > <ramon.e...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>On Nov 5, 7:52=A0am, Ea...@bellsouth.net (J. Hugh Sullivan) wrote: > >>> On Wed, 4 Nov 2009 18:39:30 -0800 (PST), Eric Ramon
> >>> <ramon.e...@gmail.com> wrote: > >>> > Credit card rates, for example, > >>> >left unregulated would be devastating to the middle class but very > >>> >good for the credit card company owners.
> >>> Rates don't matter to people who have a sense of fiscal discipline.
> >>> Hugh
> >>actually credit card companies can and do close accounts on people who > >>pay off their balance every month. There's no money to be made there. > >>To keep your card you need to carry a balance on occasion. If you're a > >>person who always pays off your balance and you've kept your card/s > >>then more power to you.
> > I pay off every month and have never been cancelled - they just raise > > my limit. My wife has a separate card but she charges on mine also. > > Doesn't the merchant pay a fee for their use?
> Yep... and if you spend enough, they don't care if you pay it off every > month.
> If you only spend a little bit though - and pay it off every month...
> In article <Xns9CBA99DBBC579082...@130.133.1.4>, > The BorgMan <m...@me.net> wrote:
>> Ea...@bellsouth.net (J. Hugh Sullivan) wrote in news:4af324ea.20808578 >> @news.eternal-september.org:
>> > On Thu, 5 Nov 2009 09:35:15 -0800 (PST), Eric Ramon >> > <ramon.e...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>On Nov 5, 7:52=A0am, Ea...@bellsouth.net (J. Hugh Sullivan) wrote: >> >>> On Wed, 4 Nov 2009 18:39:30 -0800 (PST), Eric Ramon
>> >>> <ramon.e...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> > Credit card rates, for example, >> >>> >left unregulated would be devastating to the middle class but very >> >>> >good for the credit card company owners.
>> >>> Rates don't matter to people who have a sense of fiscal discipline.
>> >>> Hugh
>> >>actually credit card companies can and do close accounts on people who >> >>pay off their balance every month. There's no money to be made there. >> >>To keep your card you need to carry a balance on occasion. If you're a >> >>person who always pays off your balance and you've kept your card/s >> >>then more power to you.
>> > I pay off every month and have never been cancelled - they just raise >> > my limit. My wife has a separate card but she charges on mine also. >> > Doesn't the merchant pay a fee for their use?
>> Yep... and if you spend enough, they don't care if you pay it off every >> month.
>> If you only spend a little bit though - and pay it off every month...
> What do you intend to convey with the ellipsis?
"An ellipsis can also be used to indicate a pause in speech"
"The BorgMan" <m...@me.net> wrote in message news:Xns9CBA99DBBC579082574@130.133.1.4... > Ea...@bellsouth.net (J. Hugh Sullivan) wrote in news:4af324ea.20808578 > @news.eternal-september.org:
>> On Thu, 5 Nov 2009 09:35:15 -0800 (PST), Eric Ramon >> <ramon.e...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>On Nov 5, 7:52=A0am, Ea...@bellsouth.net (J. Hugh Sullivan) wrote: >>>> On Wed, 4 Nov 2009 18:39:30 -0800 (PST), Eric Ramon
>>>> <ramon.e...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> > Credit card rates, for example, >>>> >left unregulated would be devastating to the middle class but very >>>> >good for the credit card company owners.
>>>> Rates don't matter to people who have a sense of fiscal discipline.
>>>> Hugh
>>>actually credit card companies can and do close accounts on people who >>>pay off their balance every month. There's no money to be made there. >>>To keep your card you need to carry a balance on occasion. If you're a >>>person who always pays off your balance and you've kept your card/s >>>then more power to you.
>> I pay off every month and have never been cancelled - they just raise >> my limit. My wife has a separate card but she charges on mine also. >> Doesn't the merchant pay a fee for their use?
> Yep... and if you spend enough, they don't care if you pay it off every > month.
> If you only spend a little bit though - and pay it off every month...
> -- > Aaron
I never carry balances and have not had any cards cancelled, except for one I hadn't used in almost 2 years. I wonder how much "enough" is?
> Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote in news:rubrum- > BE6CCE.12323506112...@news.albasani.net:
> > In article <Xns9CBA99DBBC579082...@130.133.1.4>, > > The BorgMan <m...@me.net> wrote:
> >> Ea...@bellsouth.net (J. Hugh Sullivan) wrote in news:4af324ea.20808578 > >> @news.eternal-september.org:
> >> > On Thu, 5 Nov 2009 09:35:15 -0800 (PST), Eric Ramon > >> > <ramon.e...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>On Nov 5, 7:52=A0am, Ea...@bellsouth.net (J. Hugh Sullivan) wrote: > >> >>> On Wed, 4 Nov 2009 18:39:30 -0800 (PST), Eric Ramon
> >> >>> <ramon.e...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> >>> > Credit card rates, for example, > >> >>> >left unregulated would be devastating to the middle class but > very > >> >>> >good for the credit card company owners.
> >> >>> Rates don't matter to people who have a sense of fiscal > discipline.
> >> >>> Hugh
> >> >>actually credit card companies can and do close accounts on people > who > >> >>pay off their balance every month. There's no money to be made > there. > >> >>To keep your card you need to carry a balance on occasion. If you're > a > >> >>person who always pays off your balance and you've kept your card/s > >> >>then more power to you.
> >> > I pay off every month and have never been cancelled - they just > raise > >> > my limit. My wife has a separate card but she charges on mine also. > >> > Doesn't the merchant pay a fee for their use?
> >> Yep... and if you spend enough, they don't care if you pay it off > every > >> month.
> >> If you only spend a little bit though - and pay it off every month...
> > What do you intend to convey with the ellipsis?
> "An ellipsis can also be used to indicate a pause in speech"
>"The BorgMan" <m...@me.net> wrote in message news:Xns9CBA99DBBC579082574@130.133.1.4... >> Ea...@bellsouth.net (J. Hugh Sullivan) wrote in news:4af324ea.20808578 >> @news.eternal-september.org:
>>> On Thu, 5 Nov 2009 09:35:15 -0800 (PST), Eric Ramon >>> <ramon.e...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>On Nov 5, 7:52=A0am, Ea...@bellsouth.net (J. Hugh Sullivan) wrote: >>>>> On Wed, 4 Nov 2009 18:39:30 -0800 (PST), Eric Ramon
>>>>> <ramon.e...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> > Credit card rates, for example, >>>>> >left unregulated would be devastating to the middle class but very >>>>> >good for the credit card company owners.
>>>>> Rates don't matter to people who have a sense of fiscal discipline.
>>>>> Hugh
>>>>actually credit card companies can and do close accounts on people who >>>>pay off their balance every month. There's no money to be made there. >>>>To keep your card you need to carry a balance on occasion. If you're a >>>>person who always pays off your balance and you've kept your card/s >>>>then more power to you.
>>> I pay off every month and have never been cancelled - they just raise >>> my limit. My wife has a separate card but she charges on mine also. >>> Doesn't the merchant pay a fee for their use?
>> Yep... and if you spend enough, they don't care if you pay it off every >> month.
>> If you only spend a little bit though - and pay it off every month...
>> -- >> Aaron
>I never carry balances and have not had any cards cancelled, except for one I hadn't used in almost >2 years. I wonder how much "enough" is?
>Ken
They didn't cancel mine when I only spent about $1,000 per month, on average. The must be pretty happy with me now.
> But yeah, technically speaking it is not a "capitalist" country but then neither is it a "socialist" country. There are elements of both
Obviously there are elements of both. For people who advocate more government control and are espousing it as a good, even necessary, thing, why be so afraid of the "socialist" label? It seems like everytime someone suggests something like universal health care is a socialist idea, people start shrieking and calling names. Why not embrace it if that's what it is?
> "The BorgMan" <m...@me.net> wrote in message > news:Xns9CBA99DBBC579082574@130.133.1.4... >> Ea...@bellsouth.net (J. Hugh Sullivan) wrote in >> news:4af324ea.20808578 @news.eternal-september.org:
>>> On Thu, 5 Nov 2009 09:35:15 -0800 (PST), Eric Ramon >>> <ramon.e...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>On Nov 5, 7:52=A0am, Ea...@bellsouth.net (J. Hugh Sullivan) wrote: >>>>> On Wed, 4 Nov 2009 18:39:30 -0800 (PST), Eric Ramon
>>>>> <ramon.e...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> > Credit card rates, for example, >>>>> >left unregulated would be devastating to the middle class but >>>>> >very good for the credit card company owners.
>>>>> Rates don't matter to people who have a sense of fiscal >>>>> discipline.
>>>>> Hugh
>>>>actually credit card companies can and do close accounts on people >>>>who pay off their balance every month. There's no money to be made >>>>there. To keep your card you need to carry a balance on occasion. If >>>>you're a person who always pays off your balance and you've kept >>>>your card/s then more power to you.
>>> I pay off every month and have never been cancelled - they just >>> raise my limit. My wife has a separate card but she charges on mine >>> also. Doesn't the merchant pay a fee for their use?
>> Yep... and if you spend enough, they don't care if you pay it off >> every month.
>> If you only spend a little bit though - and pay it off every month...
>> -- >> Aaron
> I never carry balances and have not had any cards cancelled, except > for one I hadn't used in almost 2 years. I wonder how much "enough" > is?
Probably somewhere above a few hundred dollars a month.
I know someone who got a card canceled - but they were spendiung in the tens of dollars a month on all their cards total.
|
