> Volvox minor, is made up of > cells that are in a cluster which subtly change. Some of > the cells on the outside form a kind of shell. These cells > divide until they reach about 2000 cells, at which point, the > outside cells die and _release_ the original unaltered cells > which in turn make a new Volox minor. The cells which > made up the shell were called "somatic". These cells > were programed to age and die, having been used > merely to obtain food and transportation and to > facilitate reproduction.
For Volvox death seems as inevitable as for a mouse or man. Once it has offspring the body (somatic cells) are no longer needed, and dies: but the immortal germ live on to build to build new volvox. Weismann, in 18881 delivered a lecture to fellow scientist in which he made the astonishing claim that some animal cells including human, were could divide only a limited number of times, which he called somatic cells. but other cells were capable of an infinite number of divisions, which he called germ cells. Weizmann was later vindicated, but tragically he lived just long enough to see his life's work seemingly falsified.
Nobel prize winner, Alex Carrel placed chicken cells in a "liquid cuisine", of nutrients and they began to grow. After several months, he reported that the cells showed no indication of aging: so Weismann was wrong. His findings were later apparently confirmed when cancer cells were taken from a woman named Henrietta Lacks was given to a cancer researcher, Dr. George Gey. He placed these cells in a an artificial environment, which a reporter called a called "cancer in a test tube". These cancer cells began an explosive growth, dividing far beyond expectations. They are called HiLa cells, to protect the identity of the person from whom they were taken. Samples of HiLa cells have been sent to researchers all over the world and are alive today. Henrieta died in 1951.
One of the great strength of science is that it is self- correcting. Lenard Hayflick of the Wistar Institute in Philadelphia was trying to get clean human cells for the purpose of identifying possible cancer causing viruses. But Hayflick was have trouble getting human cells to grow in vitro (in glass). He could not match the success Carrel or Gey had in earlier years. His cells would divide until they reached about 50 divisions then they would stop dividing. He complained about his failure and someone jokingly said, "well, Len your cells are just growing old". Could it be? How scandalous would that be! Hayflick knew that some human cells were clearly immortal- HeLa cells were human cells and they were immortal.
So, in frustration Hayflick requested other scientist take samples of his cells and run the experiment. They did and had the same results. Hayflick decided on additional test, in which he used cells from an old man with the X chromosome needed for distinction, and a young woman together in the same enviroment during the same testing procedure. The old man cells soon ceased dividing, while the young female cells continued dividing long afterwards. This old man and young woman test was reversed old woman mixed with young male cells. The results were the same. The old woman cells ceased dividing long before the young man cells. So, it was evident that normal human cell did, in fact, age. Normal cells, after becoming cancerous somehow seems to acquire immortality.
Hayflick sent a manuscript to the "Journal of Expermental Medicine" describing his results. A Nobel Laureant on the staff read the manuscript and said, "The largest fact to come out of tissue cultures in the past 50 years is that cells are inherently capable of multiplying will do so indefinitely if supplied with the right conditions". The manuscript was rejected.
Hayflick eventually re-summited his manuscript to another journal and it was published. This paper has since been one of the most frequently referenced papers in the history of medical research.
There is a terrible genetic disease visited upon unfortunate children called progeria. Children with this mutated DNA age at an accelerated rate, seem normal until they are about ten. Around 12 they have gray hair, wrinkled skin thinning bones and they rarely reach 20 years of age. Skin cells from these children also show extremely rapid aging. By contrast, the Galapagos tortoises, which can live hundreds of years, has cells that can divide far beyond the "Hayflick limit" of some 50 divisions for human somatic (soma) cells.
Research has shown that aging is linked to cell division, and not to time itself. One of Hayflick lab assistants, Woody Wright exchanged the old man's nucleus with a young cell and a nuclei of a young cell into an old cell. This show that something in the nucleus kept a count down. A "clock" in the nucleus kept up with the number of divisions. The way this happens, is that at the linear end of chromosomes, there is a series of repeats, discovered by and called "telomeres" by Hermann Muller. These are like the ends of shoe laces. They serve as the "clock" keeping track of the number of repeats.
Research demonstrated that each time a cell divided, the daughter cell inherits the properties of the parent, including the DNA repeats (links)at the chromosome's end minus one link. Each time a cell divides daughters telomere is one link less than the parent cell.
Next to come, immortal cells and how they differ from mortal soma cells.
Suzanne wrote: > On Oct 26, 2:46 pm, "Mike Painter" <md.pain...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: >> Suzanne wrote: >>> On Oct 23, 11:05 am, Garamond Lethe <cartographi...@gFNORDmail.com> >>> wrote: >>>> On 2009-10-23, Ron Dean <rd...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> <snip> >>>> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/02/050211085646.htm >>>> <snip> >>> But, we aren't E. Coli. We are people and have people cells. >>> Suzanne >> Very good Suzanne. Are all the cells in our body "people cells" >> Can we survive if all the non "people cells" are removed? >> Is it OK to remove some of those "people cells"?
> It was a little bit of humor aimed at the fact that they > were talking about the longevity of such as E Coli, > and I was indicating that we are especially interested > in human cells, and of course, how they can give us > longer life. > Longevity is a very interesting subject. Humans have > a gland, the pineal gland, that starts shutting everything > down trying to kill us when we get up in years. The > hormone that we all have, which is called growth hormone > is prevented from being utilized when we get older. It is not > that we don't produce enough growth hormone, it's that the > pituitary gland prevents us from taking it up to use. Scientists > that study this declare that old age dying is not a natural > process when they see this kind of thing, because they see > that even though our bodies continue to produce the things > needed for longer life, the gland is shutting it all down. For > this reason, these scientists say they really look at the > process as a disease, itself. > Take for example, when someone gets older, they often > have trouble getting enough sleep. Here's what is going on. > The growth hormone is more easily picked up to be used > if there is enough seratonin flowing. Seratonin is that > substance that when released produces sleep. It also has > other functions. > When one studies the way something like E Coli or any > thing lives long, they are interested in by what mechanism > these cells do this. There are worms in the ocean that are > called "longevity worms" that they have studied in an > attempt to find a way to help humans to live longer. > If you are interested in this, here is an article about some > of the worms that they study, and how studying them can > hopefully benefit humans. > http://www.springfieldnewssun.com/lifestyle/ohio-health-news/worms-re... > Suzanne
Very interesting comments, Suzanne. The aging mechanics is largely known.
Garamond Lethe wrote: > On 2009-10-23, Ron Dean <rd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> <snip>
>> Our earliest ancestors, were single cell organisms, which >> by definition were immortal. >> Unicellular organisms increase >> by means of fission, dividing into two separate and distinct >> organisms. They are the same structure and size. They >> do not age and die. But immortality was forfeited hundreds >> of millions of years ago when unicellular organisms evolved >> into with multicellular beings. IOW our ancestors traded >> immortality for complexity. And we as a result inherited >> death.
> That's not considered to be the case any more.
> An immortal cells does not mean that it cannot die. Certainly, it can be burned; or poisoned; or eaten by another microbe or starved to death. But an immortal cell unlike a somatic cell is not programed to age and die. IOW the Hayflick limit determines the number of divisions a somatic cell, where as a immortal cell is not limited by it's telomeres.
> In all the known history of this planet we cannot find one immortal > creature, not one reptile or mammal or other configuration of life. > If it were possible it would have surfaced by now.
> By the time reptiles, and mammals had evolved immortality had been forfeited. Our single cell ancestors were immortal.
>> Eventually >> if research is permitted, the answer may very well be >> yes! But during the two terms of >> President George W. Bush research in this area >> progressed very little.
> The Abraham Lincoln administration had no better luck.
> You must realize that immortal humans would have no need to propogate, > in fact it must be banned or there would soon be an overcrowded > world. So no sex could be allowed. Or perhaps the immortals would > devolve to lose interest in it.
Ron Dean wrote: >> Volvox minor, is made up of >> cells that are in a cluster which subtly change. Some of >> the cells on the outside form a kind of shell. These cells >> divide until they reach about 2000 cells, at which point, the >> outside cells die and _release_ the original unaltered cells >> which in turn make a new Volox minor. The cells which >> made up the shell were called "somatic". These cells >> were programed to age and die, having been used >> merely to obtain food and transportation and to >> facilitate reproduction. > For Volvox death seems as inevitable as for a mouse or man. > Once it has offspring the body (somatic cells) are no longer > needed, and dies: but the immortal germ live on to build to > build new volvox. > Weismann, in 18881 delivered a lecture to fellow scientist in > which he made the astonishing claim that some animal cells > including human, were could divide only a limited number of > times, which he called somatic cells. but other cells were > capable of an infinite number of divisions, which he called > germ cells. Weizmann was later vindicated, but tragically > he lived just long enough to see his life's work seemingly > falsified.
> Nobel prize winner, Alex Carrel placed chicken cells in a > "liquid cuisine", of nutrients and they began to grow. > After several months, he reported that the cells showed > no indication of aging: so Weismann was wrong. His findings > were later apparently confirmed when cancer cells were taken > from a woman named Henrietta Lacks was given to a cancer > researcher, Dr. George Gey. He placed these cells in a an > artificial environment, which a reporter called a called > "cancer in a test tube". These cancer cells began an explosive > growth, dividing far beyond expectations. They are called > HiLa cells, to protect the identity of the person from whom > they were taken. Samples of HiLa cells have been sent to > researchers all over the world and are alive today. Henrieta > died in 1951.
> One of the great strength of science is that it is self- > correcting. Lenard Hayflick of the Wistar Institute in > Philadelphia was trying to get clean human cells for > the purpose of identifying possible cancer causing > viruses. But Hayflick was have trouble getting human > cells to grow in vitro (in glass). He could not match the > success Carrel or Gey had in earlier years. His cells > would divide until they reached about 50 divisions then > they would stop dividing. He complained about his failure > and someone jokingly said, "well, Len your cells are just > growing old". Could it be? How scandalous would that be! > Hayflick knew that some human cells were clearly immortal- > HeLa cells were human cells and they were immortal.
> So, in frustration Hayflick requested other scientist > take samples of his cells and run the experiment. They did > and had the same results. Hayflick decided on additional > test, in which he used cells from an old man with the X > chromosome needed for distinction, and a young woman > together in the same enviroment during the same testing > procedure. The old man cells soon ceased dividing, while > the young female cells continued dividing long afterwards. > This old man and young woman test was reversed old woman > mixed with young male cells. The results were the same. > The old woman cells ceased dividing long before the young > man cells. So, it was evident that normal human cell did, > in fact, age. Normal cells, after becoming cancerous somehow > seems to acquire immortality.
> Hayflick sent a manuscript to the "Journal of Expermental > Medicine" describing his results. A Nobel Laureant on the > staff read the manuscript and said, "The largest fact to > come out of tissue cultures in the past 50 years is that > cells are inherently capable of multiplying will do so > indefinitely if supplied with the right conditions". > The manuscript was rejected.
> Hayflick eventually re-summited his manuscript to another > journal and it was published. This paper has since been > one of the most frequently referenced papers in the history > of medical research.
> There is a terrible genetic disease visited upon unfortunate > children called progeria. Children with this mutated DNA > age at an accelerated rate, seem normal until they are about > ten. Around 12 they have gray hair, wrinkled skin thinning > bones and they rarely reach 20 years of age. Skin cells > from these children also show extremely rapid aging. By > contrast, the Galapagos tortoises, which can live hundreds > of years, has cells that can divide far beyond the "Hayflick > limit" of some 50 divisions for human somatic (soma) cells.
> Research has shown that aging is linked to cell division, > and not to time itself. One of Hayflick lab assistants, > Woody Wright exchanged the old man's nucleus with a young > cell and a nuclei of a young cell into an old cell. This > show that something in the nucleus kept a count down. A > "clock" in the nucleus kept up with the number of divisions. > The way this happens, is that at the linear end of chromosomes, > there is a series of repeats, discovered by and called > "telomeres" by Hermann Muller. These are like the ends of > shoe laces. They serve as the "clock" keeping track of the > number of repeats.
> Research demonstrated that each time a cell divided, the > daughter cell inherits the properties of the parent, > including the DNA repeats (links)at the chromosome's end > minus one link. > Each time a cell divides daughters telomere is one link > less than the parent cell.
> Next to come, immortal cells and how they differ from > mortal soma cells.
SO far, so good. I'm anxious for your next installment.
>>> But, we aren't E. Coli. We are people and have people cells.
>>> Suzanne
>> Very good Suzanne. Are all the cells in our body "people cells" >> Can we survive if all the non "people cells" are removed? >> Is it OK to remove some of those "people cells"?
> It was a little bit of humor aimed at the fact that they > were talking about the longevity of such as E Coli, > and I was indicating that we are especially interested > in human cells, and of course, how they can give us > longer life.
Suzanne uses the joker card to try and back out from another stupid statement, then posts something she really does not understand.
> >>> But, we aren't E. Coli. We are people and have people cells.
> >>> Suzanne
> >> Very good Suzanne. Are all the cells in our body "people cells" > >> Can we survive if all the non "people cells" are removed? > >> Is it OK to remove some of those "people cells"?
> > It was a little bit of humor aimed at the fact that they > > were talking about the longevity of such as E Coli, > > and I was indicating that we are especially interested > > in human cells, and of course, how they can give us > > longer life.
> Suzanne uses the joker card to try and back out from another stupid > statement, then posts something she really does not understand.
This is news?
-- A computer without Microsoft is like a chocolate cake without mustard.
> On Sun, 25 Oct 2009 14:48:02 -0700 (PDT), Suzanne
> <leila...@hotmail.com> wrote: > >On Oct 23, 11:05 am, Garamond Lethe <cartographi...@gFNORDmail.com> > >wrote: > >> On 2009-10-23, Ron Dean <rd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> <snip>
> >> > Our earliest ancestors, were single cell organisms, which > >> > by definition were immortal. > >> > Unicellular organisms increase > >> > by means of fission, dividing into two separate and distinct > >> > organisms. They are the same structure and size. They > >> > do not age and die. But immortality was forfeited hundreds > >> > of millions of years ago when unicellular organisms evolved > >> > into with multicellular beings. IOW our ancestors traded > >> > immortality for complexity. And we as a result inherited > >> > death.
> >> That's not considered to be the case any more.
> >But, we aren't E. Coli. We are people and have people cells.
> Aside from the fact that we all carry enormous numbers of E. Coli > in our guts, wwe also share a certain number of genes with them. > Scientists are trying to determine if the age genes in mammals > might be able to be turned off
Almost certainly not that simple. If we were simply programmed to die, some sort of timer, there would have been mutants for whom this didn't work.
Most opinions of those in the field is that we age because a number of things go wrong. Humans already have had strong selective pressure to live longer - it's a big advantage to have grandpa and grandma around, and it takes us 20 years to learn to be adults anyway. there are only a few endothermic critters that live as long as we do, and they tend to be big, social, and smart. Parrots maybe the smallest, plus elephants, some whales, and not many others.
If civilization doesn't collapse, we will eventually learn to keep people alive indefinitely. I have no idea whether this is 500 years off, or 50.
> -- > ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatu...@cox.net) ************* > * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * > * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
> In talk.origins Hatunen <hatu...@cox.net> wrote:
> >On Sun, 25 Oct 2009 14:48:02 -0700 (PDT), Suzanne > ><leila...@hotmail.com> wrote: > >>On Oct 23, 11:05 am, Garamond Lethe <cartographi...@gFNORDmail.com> > >>wrote: > >>> On 2009-10-23, Ron Dean <rd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> <snip>
> >>> > Our earliest ancestors, were single cell organisms, which > >>> > by definition were immortal. > >>> > Unicellular organisms increase > >>> > by means of fission, dividing into two separate and distinct > >>> > organisms. They are the same structure and size. They > >>> > do not age and die. But immortality was forfeited hundreds > >>> > of millions of years ago when unicellular organisms evolved > >>> > into with multicellular beings. IOW our ancestors traded > >>> > immortality for complexity. And we as a result inherited > >>> > death.
> >>> That's not considered to be the case any more.
> >>But, we aren't E. Coli. We are people and have people cells. > >Aside from the fact that we all carry enormous numbers of E. Coli > >in our guts, wwe also share a certain number of genes with them. > >Scientists are trying to determine if the age genes in mammals > >might be able to be turned off
> Ye Ghods! Up to our armpits in descendants!
> -- > --- Paul J. Gans
The effects will be almost immediate once it becomes affordable to the middle class. On the bright side, they might be willing to look at long-term consequences of our behavior. Also, the introduction of Soylent Green® as a popular food will make this problem self-limiting.
Paul J Gans wrote: > In talk.origins Hatunen <hatu...@cox.net> wrote: >> On Sun, 25 Oct 2009 14:48:02 -0700 (PDT), Suzanne >> <leila...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Oct 23, 11:05 am, Garamond Lethe <cartographi...@gFNORDmail.com> >>> wrote: >>>> On 2009-10-23, Ron Dean <rd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> <snip>
>>>>> Our earliest ancestors, were single cell organisms, which >>>>> by definition were immortal. >>>>> Unicellular organisms increase >>>>> by means of fission, dividing into two separate and distinct >>>>> organisms. They are the same structure and size. They >>>>> do not age and die. But immortality was forfeited hundreds >>>>> of millions of years ago when unicellular organisms evolved >>>>> into with multicellular beings. IOW our ancestors traded >>>>> immortality for complexity. And we as a result inherited >>>>> death. >>>> That's not considered to be the case any more.
>>> But, we aren't E. Coli. We are people and have people cells.
>> Aside from the fact that we all carry enormous numbers of E. Coli >> in our guts, wwe also share a certain number of genes with them. >> Scientists are trying to determine if the age genes in mammals >> might be able to be turned off
> Ye Ghods! Up to our armpits in descendants!
If human soma cells were immortal, then we would ultimately become a cancerous like blob. OTOH, Certain cells signal other cells to die, so maybe this would have come into play, had the immortal cells our ancestors not forfeited immortality for complexity and mortality.
Dr. Thomas wrote: > Ron Dean wrote: >>> Volvox minor, is made up of >>> cells that are in a cluster which subtly change. Some of >>> the cells on the outside form a kind of shell. These cells >>> divide until they reach about 2000 cells, at which point, the >>> outside cells die and _release_ the original unaltered cells >>> which in turn make a new Volox minor. The cells which >>> made up the shell were called "somatic". These cells >>> were programed to age and die, having been used >>> merely to obtain food and transportation and to >>> facilitate reproduction. >> For Volvox death seems as inevitable as for a mouse or man. >> Once it has offspring the body (somatic cells) are no longer >> needed, and dies: but the immortal germ live on to build to >> build new volvox. >> Weismann, in 18881 delivered a lecture to fellow scientist in >> which he made the astonishing claim that some animal cells >> including human, were could divide only a limited number of >> times, which he called somatic cells. but other cells were >> capable of an infinite number of divisions, which he called >> germ cells. Weizmann was later vindicated, but tragically >> he lived just long enough to see his life's work seemingly >> falsified.
>> Nobel prize winner, Alex Carrel placed chicken cells in a >> "liquid cuisine", of nutrients and they began to grow. >> After several months, he reported that the cells showed >> no indication of aging: so Weismann was wrong. His findings >> were later apparently confirmed when cancer cells were taken >> from a woman named Henrietta Lacks was given to a cancer >> researcher, Dr. George Gey. He placed these cells in a an >> artificial environment, which a reporter called a called >> "cancer in a test tube". These cancer cells began an explosive >> growth, dividing far beyond expectations. They are called >> HiLa cells, to protect the identity of the person from whom >> they were taken. Samples of HiLa cells have been sent to >> researchers all over the world and are alive today. Henrieta >> died in 1951.
>> One of the great strength of science is that it is self- >> correcting. Lenard Hayflick of the Wistar Institute in >> Philadelphia was trying to get clean human cells for >> the purpose of identifying possible cancer causing >> viruses. But Hayflick was have trouble getting human >> cells to grow in vitro (in glass). He could not match the >> success Carrel or Gey had in earlier years. His cells >> would divide until they reached about 50 divisions then >> they would stop dividing. He complained about his failure >> and someone jokingly said, "well, Len your cells are just >> growing old". Could it be? How scandalous would that be! >> Hayflick knew that some human cells were clearly immortal- >> HeLa cells were human cells and they were immortal.
>> So, in frustration Hayflick requested other scientist >> take samples of his cells and run the experiment. They did >> and had the same results. Hayflick decided on additional >> test, in which he used cells from an old man with the X >> chromosome needed for distinction, and a young woman >> together in the same enviroment during the same testing >> procedure. The old man cells soon ceased dividing, while >> the young female cells continued dividing long afterwards. >> This old man and young woman test was reversed old woman >> mixed with young male cells. The results were the same. >> The old woman cells ceased dividing long before the young >> man cells. So, it was evident that normal human cell did, >> in fact, age. Normal cells, after becoming cancerous somehow >> seems to acquire immortality.
>> Hayflick sent a manuscript to the "Journal of Expermental >> Medicine" describing his results. A Nobel Laureant on the >> staff read the manuscript and said, "The largest fact to >> come out of tissue cultures in the past 50 years is that >> cells are inherently capable of multiplying will do so >> indefinitely if supplied with the right conditions". >> The manuscript was rejected.
>> Hayflick eventually re-summited his manuscript to another >> journal and it was published. This paper has since been >> one of the most frequently referenced papers in the history >> of medical research.
>> There is a terrible genetic disease visited upon unfortunate >> children called progeria. Children with this mutated DNA >> age at an accelerated rate, seem normal until they are about >> ten. Around 12 they have gray hair, wrinkled skin thinning >> bones and they rarely reach 20 years of age. Skin cells >> from these children also show extremely rapid aging. By >> contrast, the Galapagos tortoises, which can live hundreds >> of years, has cells that can divide far beyond the "Hayflick >> limit" of some 50 divisions for human somatic (soma) cells.
>> Research has shown that aging is linked to cell division, >> and not to time itself. One of Hayflick lab assistants, >> Woody Wright exchanged the old man's nucleus with a young >> cell and a nuclei of a young cell into an old cell. This >> show that something in the nucleus kept a count down. A >> "clock" in the nucleus kept up with the number of divisions. >> The way this happens, is that at the linear end of chromosomes, >> there is a series of repeats, discovered by and called >> "telomeres" by Hermann Muller. These are like the ends of >> shoe laces. They serve as the "clock" keeping track of the >> number of repeats.
>> Research demonstrated that each time a cell divided, the >> daughter cell inherits the properties of the parent, >> including the DNA repeats (links)at the chromosome's end >> minus one link. >> Each time a cell divides daughters telomere is one link >> less than the parent cell.
>> Next to come, immortal cells and how they differ from >> mortal soma cells.
> SO far, so good. I'm anxious for your next installment.
Iain wrote: > On Oct 27, 11:04 pm, Ron Dean <rd...@gmail.com> wrote: >> Iain wrote: >>> On Oct 23, 3:47 pm, Ron Dean <rd...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> We are programed by our DNA to age and die. >>> No, we just do. >>>> But >>>> can we be _re-programed_ not to do so? >>> No. >>> The way not to age would be to leave the aging process alone and >>> instead restore tissue to its former state.
>> This, of course, could happen once the aging process is fully >> understood. A great deal is currently known.
> No. The whole point is that this is all we can do while the aging > process is not understood.
> We do understand a great deal, while there is much to know. Why does a dog live just a few years over 10, while the green sea turtle live hundreds of years? This we do understand. There is a childhood condition in which a child seems normal until he or she reaches about 10 years old. Then the child begins to show all the symptoms of rapid aging and usually dies in their teens appearing to be advanced in age. The reasons are reasonably well understood.
> You don't need to know how a gun works in order to repair a bullet > wound.
> What has the study of aging got to do with the possibility of > rejuvenation?
> Rejuvenation? Maybe nothing. But greatly slowing the aging process is the expectation.
On Thu, 05 Nov 2009 01:47:30 -0500, Ron Dean <rd...@gmail.com> wrote: >This we do understand. There is a childhood condition in >which a child seems normal until he or she reaches about >10 years old. Then the child begins to show all the symptoms >of rapid aging and usually dies in their teens appearing to >be advanced in age. The reasons are reasonably well understood.
If anyone wants to look that particular disorder up, it's called progeria.
Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote: > On Thu, 05 Nov 2009 01:47:30 -0500, Ron Dean <rd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> This we do understand. There is a childhood condition in >> which a child seems normal until he or she reaches about >> 10 years old. Then the child begins to show all the symptoms >> of rapid aging and usually dies in their teens appearing to >> be advanced in age. The reasons are reasonably well understood.
> If anyone wants to look that particular disorder up, it's called > progeria. >
> This is true. Somatic cells taken from children with this condition, and cultured in glass(in vitro) aged and died long before the normal the normal Hayflick limit (about 50 cellular repeats) was reached. Are you familiar with this subject?
Dr. Thomas wrote: > Ron Dean wrote: >>> Volvox minor, is made up of >>> cells that are in a cluster which subtly change. Some of >>> the cells on the outside form a kind of shell. These cells >>> divide until they reach about 2000 cells, at which point, the >>> outside cells die and _release_ the original unaltered cells >>> which in turn make a new Volox minor. The cells which >>> made up the shell were called "somatic". These cells >>> were programed to age and die, having been used >>> merely to obtain food and transportation and to >>> facilitate reproduction. >> For Volvox death seems as inevitable as for a mouse or man. >> Once it has offspring the body (somatic cells) are no longer >> needed, and dies: but the immortal germ live on to build to >> build new volvox. >> Weismann, in 18881 delivered a lecture to fellow scientist in >> which he made the astonishing claim that some animal cells >> including human, were could divide only a limited number of >> times, which he called somatic cells. but other cells were >> capable of an infinite number of divisions, which he called >> germ cells. Weizmann was later vindicated, but tragically >> he lived just long enough to see his life's work seemingly >> falsified.
>> Nobel prize winner, Alex Carrel placed chicken cells in a >> "liquid cuisine", of nutrients and they began to grow. >> After several months, he reported that the cells showed >> no indication of aging: so Weismann was wrong. His findings >> were later apparently confirmed when cancer cells were taken >> from a woman named Henrietta Lacks was given to a cancer >> researcher, Dr. George Gey. He placed these cells in a an >> artificial environment, which a reporter called a called >> "cancer in a test tube". These cancer cells began an explosive >> growth, dividing far beyond expectations. They are called >> HiLa cells, to protect the identity of the person from whom >> they were taken. Samples of HiLa cells have been sent to >> researchers all over the world and are alive today. Henrieta >> died in 1951.
>> One of the great strength of science is that it is self- >> correcting. Lenard Hayflick of the Wistar Institute in >> Philadelphia was trying to get clean human cells for >> the purpose of identifying possible cancer causing >> viruses. But Hayflick was have trouble getting human >> cells to grow in vitro (in glass). He could not match the >> success Carrel or Gey had in earlier years. His cells >> would divide until they reached about 50 divisions then >> they would stop dividing. He complained about his failure >> and someone jokingly said, "well, Len your cells are just >> growing old". Could it be? How scandalous would that be! >> Hayflick knew that some human cells were clearly immortal- >> HeLa cells were human cells and they were immortal.
>> So, in frustration Hayflick requested other scientist >> take samples of his cells and run the experiment. They did >> and had the same results. Hayflick decided on additional >> test, in which he used cells from an old man with the X >> chromosome needed for distinction, and a young woman >> together in the same enviroment during the same testing >> procedure. The old man cells soon ceased dividing, while >> the young female cells continued dividing long afterwards. >> This old man and young woman test was reversed old woman >> mixed with young male cells. The results were the same. >> The old woman cells ceased dividing long before the young >> man cells. So, it was evident that normal human cell did, >> in fact, age. Normal cells, after becoming cancerous somehow >> seems to acquire immortality.
>> Hayflick sent a manuscript to the "Journal of Expermental >> Medicine" describing his results. A Nobel Laureant on the >> staff read the manuscript and said, "The largest fact to >> come out of tissue cultures in the past 50 years is that >> cells are inherently capable of multiplying will do so >> indefinitely if supplied with the right conditions". >> The manuscript was rejected.
>> Hayflick eventually re-summited his manuscript to another >> journal and it was published. This paper has since been >> one of the most frequently referenced papers in the history >> of medical research.
>> There is a terrible genetic disease visited upon unfortunate >> children called progeria. Children with this mutated DNA >> age at an accelerated rate, seem normal until they are about >> ten. Around 12 they have gray hair, wrinkled skin thinning >> bones and they rarely reach 20 years of age. Skin cells >> from these children also show extremely rapid aging. By >> contrast, the Galapagos tortoises, which can live hundreds >> of years, has cells that can divide far beyond the "Hayflick >> limit" of some 50 divisions for human somatic (soma) cells.
>> Research has shown that aging is linked to cell division, >> and not to time itself. One of Hayflick lab assistants, >> Woody Wright exchanged the old man's nucleus with a young >> cell and a nuclei of a young cell into an old cell. This >> show that something in the nucleus kept a count down. A >> "clock" in the nucleus kept up with the number of divisions. >> The way this happens, is that at the linear end of chromosomes, >> there is a series of repeats, discovered by and called >> "telomeres" by Hermann Muller. These are like the ends of >> shoe laces. They serve as the "clock" keeping track of the >> number of repeats.
>> Research demonstrated that each time a cell divided, the >> daughter cell inherits the properties of the parent, >> including the DNA repeats (links)at the chromosome's end >> minus one link. >> Each time a cell divides daughters telomere is one link >> less than the parent cell.
>> Next to come, immortal cells and how they differ from >> mortal soma cells.
> SO far, so good. I'm anxious for your next installment.
> Since no one seemed interested I saw no reason to pursue this any further.
Ron Dean wrote: >> Volvox minor, is made up of >> cells that are in a cluster which subtly change. Some of >> the cells on the outside form a kind of shell. These cells >> divide until they reach about 2000 cells, at which point, the >> outside cells die and _release_ the original unaltered cells >> which in turn make a new Volox minor. The cells which >> made up the shell were called "somatic". These cells >> were programed to age and die, having been used >> merely to obtain food and transportation and to >> facilitate reproduction. > For Volvox death seems as inevitable as for a mouse or man. > Once it has offspring the body (somatic cells) are no longer > needed, and dies: but the immortal germ live on to build to > build new volvox. > Weismann, in 18881 delivered a lecture to fellow scientist in > which he made the astonishing claim that some animal cells > including human, were could divide only a limited number of > times, which he called somatic cells. but other cells were > capable of an infinite number of divisions, which he called > germ cells. Weizmann was later vindicated, but tragically > he lived just long enough to see his life's work seemingly > falsified.
> Nobel prize winner, Alex Carrel placed chicken cells in a > "liquid cuisine", of nutrients and they began to grow. > After several months, he reported that the cells showed > no indication of aging: so Weismann was wrong. His findings > were later apparently confirmed when cancer cells were taken > from a woman named Henrietta Lacks was given to a cancer > researcher, Dr. George Gey. He placed these cells in a an > artificial environment, which a reporter called a called > "cancer in a test tube". These cancer cells began an explosive > growth, dividing far beyond expectations. They are called > HiLa cells, to protect the identity of the person from whom > they were taken. Samples of HiLa cells have been sent to > researchers all over the world and are alive today. Henrieta > died in 1951.
> One of the great strength of science is that it is self- > correcting. Lenard Hayflick of the Wistar Institute in > Philadelphia was trying to get clean human cells for > the purpose of identifying possible cancer causing > viruses. But Hayflick was have trouble getting human > cells to grow in vitro (in glass). He could not match the > success Carrel or Gey had in earlier years. His cells > would divide until they reached about 50 divisions then > they would stop dividing. He complained about his failure > and someone jokingly said, "well, Len your cells are just > growing old". Could it be? How scandalous would that be! > Hayflick knew that some human cells were clearly immortal- > HeLa cells were human cells and they were immortal.
> So, in frustration Hayflick requested other scientist > take samples of his cells and run the experiment. They did > and had the same results. Hayflick decided on additional > test, in which he used cells from an old man with the X > chromosome needed for distinction, and a young woman > together in the same enviroment during the same testing > procedure. The old man cells soon ceased dividing, while > the young female cells continued dividing long afterwards. > This old man and young woman test was reversed old woman > mixed with young male cells. The results were the same. > The old woman cells ceased dividing long before the young > man cells. So, it was evident that normal human cell did, > in fact, age. Normal cells, after becoming cancerous somehow > seems to acquire immortality.
> Hayflick sent a manuscript to the "Journal of Expermental > Medicine" describing his results. A Nobel Laureant on the > staff read the manuscript and said, "The largest fact to > come out of tissue cultures in the past 50 years is that > cells are inherently capable of multiplying will do so > indefinitely if supplied with the right conditions". > The manuscript was rejected.
> Hayflick eventually re-summited his manuscript to another > journal and it was published. This paper has since been > one of the most frequently referenced papers in the history > of medical research.
> There is a terrible genetic disease visited upon unfortunate > children called progeria. Children with this mutated DNA > age at an accelerated rate, seem normal until they are about > ten. Around 12 they have gray hair, wrinkled skin thinning > bones and they rarely reach 20 years of age. Skin cells > from these children also show extremely rapid aging. By > contrast, the Galapagos tortoises, which can live hundreds > of years, has cells that can divide far beyond the "Hayflick > limit" of some 50 divisions for human somatic (soma) cells.
> Research has shown that aging is linked to cell division, > and not to time itself. One of Hayflick lab assistants, > Woody Wright exchanged the old man's nucleus with a young > cell and a nuclei of a young cell into an old cell. This > show that something in the nucleus kept a count down. A > "clock" in the nucleus kept up with the number of divisions. > The way this happens, is that at the linear end of chromosomes, > there is a series of repeats, discovered by and called > "telomeres" by Hermann Muller. These are like the ends of > shoe laces. They serve as the "clock" keeping track of the > number of repeats.
> Research demonstrated that each time a cell divided, the > daughter cell inherits the properties of the parent, > including the DNA repeats (links)at the chromosome's end > minus one link. > Each time a cell divides daughters telomere is one link > less than the parent cell.
> Next to come, immortal cells and how they differ from > mortal soma cells.
<rd...@gmail.com> wrote: > Dr. Thomas wrote: > > Ron Dean wrote: > >>> Volvox minor, is made up of > >>> cells that are in a cluster which subtly change. Some of > >>> the cells on the outside form a kind of shell. These cells > >>> divide until they reach about 2000 cells, at which point, the > >>> outside cells die and _release_ the original unaltered cells > >>> which in turn make a new Volox minor. The cells which > >>> made up the shell were called "somatic". These cells > >>> were programed to age and die, having been used > >>> merely to obtain food and transportation and to > >>> facilitate reproduction. > >> For Volvox death seems as inevitable as for a mouse or man. > >> Once it has offspring the body (somatic cells) are no longer > >> needed, and dies: but the immortal germ live on to build to > >> build new volvox. > >> Weismann, in 18881 delivered a lecture to fellow scientist in > >> which he made the astonishing claim that some animal cells > >> including human, were could divide only a limited number of > >> times, which he called somatic cells. but other cells were > >> capable of an infinite number of divisions, which he called > >> germ cells. Weizmann was later vindicated, but tragically > >> he lived just long enough to see his life's work seemingly > >> falsified.
> >> Nobel prize winner, Alex Carrel placed chicken cells in a > >> "liquid cuisine", of nutrients and they began to grow. > >> After several months, he reported that the cells showed > >> no indication of aging: so Weismann was wrong. His findings > >> were later apparently confirmed when cancer cells were taken > >> from a woman named Henrietta Lacks was given to a cancer > >> researcher, Dr. George Gey. He placed these cells in a an > >> artificial environment, which a reporter called a called > >> "cancer in a test tube". These cancer cells began an explosive > >> growth, dividing far beyond expectations. They are called > >> HiLa cells, to protect the identity of the person from whom > >> they were taken. Samples of HiLa cells have been sent to > >> researchers all over the world and are alive today. Henrieta > >> died in 1951.
> >> One of the great strength of science is that it is self- > >> correcting. Lenard Hayflick of the Wistar Institute in > >> Philadelphia was trying to get clean human cells for > >> the purpose of identifying possible cancer causing > >> viruses. But Hayflick was have trouble getting human > >> cells to grow in vitro (in glass). He could not match the > >> success Carrel or Gey had in earlier years. His cells > >> would divide until they reached about 50 divisions then > >> they would stop dividing. He complained about his failure > >> and someone jokingly said, "well, Len your cells are just > >> growing old". Could it be? How scandalous would that be! > >> Hayflick knew that some human cells were clearly immortal- > >> HeLa cells were human cells and they were immortal.
> >> So, in frustration Hayflick requested other scientist > >> take samples of his cells and run the experiment. They did > >> and had the same results. Hayflick decided on additional > >> test, in which he used cells from an old man with the X > >> chromosome needed for distinction, and a young woman > >> together in the same enviroment during the same testing > >> procedure. The old man cells soon ceased dividing, while > >> the young female cells continued dividing long afterwards. > >> This old man and young woman test was reversed old woman > >> mixed with young male cells. The results were the same. > >> The old woman cells ceased dividing long before the young > >> man cells. So, it was evident that normal human cell did, > >> in fact, age. Normal cells, after becoming cancerous somehow > >> seems to acquire immortality.
> >> Hayflick sent a manuscript to the "Journal of Expermental > >> Medicine" describing his results. A Nobel Laureant on the > >> staff read the manuscript and said, "The largest fact to > >> come out of tissue cultures in the past 50 years is that > >> cells are inherently capable of multiplying will do so > >> indefinitely if supplied with the right conditions". > >> The manuscript was rejected.
> >> Hayflick eventually re-summited his manuscript to another > >> journal and it was published. This paper has since been > >> one of the most frequently referenced papers in the history > >> of medical research.
> >> There is a terrible genetic disease visited upon unfortunate > >> children called progeria. Children with this mutated DNA > >> age at an accelerated rate, seem normal until they are about > >> ten. Around 12 they have gray hair, wrinkled skin thinning > >> bones and they rarely reach 20 years of age. Skin cells > >> from these children also show extremely rapid aging. By > >> contrast, the Galapagos tortoises, which can live hundreds > >> of years, has cells that can divide far beyond the "Hayflick > >> limit" of some 50 divisions for human somatic (soma) cells.
> >> Research has shown that aging is linked to cell division, > >> and not to time itself. One of Hayflick lab assistants, > >> Woody Wright exchanged the old man's nucleus with a young > >> cell and a nuclei of a young cell into an old cell. This > >> show that something in the nucleus kept a count down. A > >> "clock" in the nucleus kept up with the number of divisions. > >> The way this happens, is that at the linear end of chromosomes, > >> there is a series of repeats, discovered by and called > >> "telomeres" by Hermann Muller. These are like the ends of > >> shoe laces. They serve as the "clock" keeping track of the > >> number of repeats.
> >> Research demonstrated that each time a cell divided, the > >> daughter cell inherits the properties of the parent, > >> including the DNA repeats (links)at the chromosome's end > >> minus one link. > >> Each time a cell divides daughters telomere is one link > >> less than the parent cell.
> >> Next to come, immortal cells and how they differ from > >> mortal soma cells.
> > SO far, so good. I'm anxious for your next installment.
> Since no one seemed interested I saw no reason to pursue this any > further.
I am interested, but not enough to put you to any trouble,
On Thu, 05 Nov 2009 12:37:34 -0500, Ron Dean <rd...@gmail.com> wrote: >Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote: >> On Thu, 05 Nov 2009 01:47:30 -0500, Ron Dean <rd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> This we do understand. There is a childhood condition in >>> which a child seems normal until he or she reaches about >>> 10 years old. Then the child begins to show all the symptoms >>> of rapid aging and usually dies in their teens appearing to >>> be advanced in age. The reasons are reasonably well understood.
>> If anyone wants to look that particular disorder up, it's called >> progeria. >
>This is true. Somatic cells taken from children with this condition, >and cultured in glass(in vitro) aged and died long before the >normal the normal Hayflick limit (about 50 cellular repeats) was >reached. Are you familiar with this subject?
John Wilkins wrote: > In article <r7EIm.5728$gi1.5...@newsfe19.iad>, Ron Dean > <rd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Dr. Thomas wrote: >>> Ron Dean wrote: >>>>> Volvox minor, is made up of >>>>> cells that are in a cluster which subtly change. Some of >>>>> the cells on the outside form a kind of shell. These cells >>>>> divide until they reach about 2000 cells, at which point, the >>>>> outside cells die and _release_ the original unaltered cells >>>>> which in turn make a new Volox minor. The cells which >>>>> made up the shell were called "somatic". These cells >>>>> were programed to age and die, having been used >>>>> merely to obtain food and transportation and to >>>>> facilitate reproduction. >>>> For Volvox death seems as inevitable as for a mouse or man. >>>> Once it has offspring the body (somatic cells) are no longer >>>> needed, and dies: but the immortal germ live on to build to >>>> build new volvox. >>>> Weismann, in 18881 delivered a lecture to fellow scientist in >>>> which he made the astonishing claim that some animal cells >>>> including human, were could divide only a limited number of >>>> times, which he called somatic cells. but other cells were >>>> capable of an infinite number of divisions, which he called >>>> germ cells. Weizmann was later vindicated, but tragically >>>> he lived just long enough to see his life's work seemingly >>>> falsified.
>>>> Nobel prize winner, Alex Carrel placed chicken cells in a >>>> "liquid cuisine", of nutrients and they began to grow. >>>> After several months, he reported that the cells showed >>>> no indication of aging: so Weismann was wrong. His findings >>>> were later apparently confirmed when cancer cells were taken >>>> from a woman named Henrietta Lacks was given to a cancer >>>> researcher, Dr. George Gey. He placed these cells in a an >>>> artificial environment, which a reporter called a called >>>> "cancer in a test tube". These cancer cells began an explosive >>>> growth, dividing far beyond expectations. They are called >>>> HiLa cells, to protect the identity of the person from whom >>>> they were taken. Samples of HiLa cells have been sent to >>>> researchers all over the world and are alive today. Henrieta >>>> died in 1951.
>>>> One of the great strength of science is that it is self- >>>> correcting. Lenard Hayflick of the Wistar Institute in >>>> Philadelphia was trying to get clean human cells for >>>> the purpose of identifying possible cancer causing >>>> viruses. But Hayflick was have trouble getting human >>>> cells to grow in vitro (in glass). He could not match the >>>> success Carrel or Gey had in earlier years. His cells >>>> would divide until they reached about 50 divisions then >>>> they would stop dividing. He complained about his failure >>>> and someone jokingly said, "well, Len your cells are just >>>> growing old". Could it be? How scandalous would that be! >>>> Hayflick knew that some human cells were clearly immortal- >>>> HeLa cells were human cells and they were immortal.
>>>> So, in frustration Hayflick requested other scientist >>>> take samples of his cells and run the experiment. They did >>>> and had the same results. Hayflick decided on additional >>>> test, in which he used cells from an old man with the X >>>> chromosome needed for distinction, and a young woman >>>> together in the same enviroment during the same testing >>>> procedure. The old man cells soon ceased dividing, while >>>> the young female cells continued dividing long afterwards. >>>> This old man and young woman test was reversed old woman >>>> mixed with young male cells. The results were the same. >>>> The old woman cells ceased dividing long before the young >>>> man cells. So, it was evident that normal human cell did, >>>> in fact, age. Normal cells, after becoming cancerous somehow >>>> seems to acquire immortality.
>>>> Hayflick sent a manuscript to the "Journal of Expermental >>>> Medicine" describing his results. A Nobel Laureant on the >>>> staff read the manuscript and said, "The largest fact to >>>> come out of tissue cultures in the past 50 years is that >>>> cells are inherently capable of multiplying will do so >>>> indefinitely if supplied with the right conditions". >>>> The manuscript was rejected.
>>>> Hayflick eventually re-summited his manuscript to another >>>> journal and it was published. This paper has since been >>>> one of the most frequently referenced papers in the history >>>> of medical research.
>>>> There is a terrible genetic disease visited upon unfortunate >>>> children called progeria. Children with this mutated DNA >>>> age at an accelerated rate, seem normal until they are about >>>> ten. Around 12 they have gray hair, wrinkled skin thinning >>>> bones and they rarely reach 20 years of age. Skin cells >>>> from these children also show extremely rapid aging. By >>>> contrast, the Galapagos tortoises, which can live hundreds >>>> of years, has cells that can divide far beyond the "Hayflick >>>> limit" of some 50 divisions for human somatic (soma) cells.
>>>> Research has shown that aging is linked to cell division, >>>> and not to time itself. One of Hayflick lab assistants, >>>> Woody Wright exchanged the old man's nucleus with a young >>>> cell and a nuclei of a young cell into an old cell. This >>>> show that something in the nucleus kept a count down. A >>>> "clock" in the nucleus kept up with the number of divisions. >>>> The way this happens, is that at the linear end of chromosomes, >>>> there is a series of repeats, discovered by and called >>>> "telomeres" by Hermann Muller. These are like the ends of >>>> shoe laces. They serve as the "clock" keeping track of the >>>> number of repeats.
>>>> Research demonstrated that each time a cell divided, the >>>> daughter cell inherits the properties of the parent, >>>> including the DNA repeats (links)at the chromosome's end >>>> minus one link. >>>> Each time a cell divides daughters telomere is one link >>>> less than the parent cell.
>>>> Next to come, immortal cells and how they differ from >>>> mortal soma cells.
>>> SO far, so good. I'm anxious for your next installment.
>> Since no one seemed interested I saw no reason to pursue this any >> further.
> I am interested, but not enough to put you to any trouble,
It is the time and trouble of writing Part III. However, I had completed approximately 50% of the next part when I felt it was a waste of time and effort, since no one appeared interested. Did you read my two previous post on the subject? If so, any comments?
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