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Ye Old One  
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 More options Nov 6, 11:39 pm
Newsgroups: talk.origins
From: Ye Old One <use...@mcsuk.net>
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2009 22:39:25 GMT
Local: Fri, Nov 6 2009 11:39 pm
Subject: News: Some of the Universe's First Galaxies Discovered.
Some of the Universe's First Galaxies Discovered
By SPACE.com staff

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/091106-earliest-galaxies-univer...

posted: 06 November 2009
01:04 pm ET

A new survey has found 22 of the earliest galaxies to form in the
universe, confirming the age of one at just 787 million years after
the theoretical Big Bang.

These and other galaxies from the universe's childhood could help shed
light on the conditions that governed the early universe.

With recent technological advances, astronomers have been able to
observe more of the so-called reionization era, the farthest back in
time that astronomers can observe.

Universe's first light

For the first few hundred thousand years after the Big Bang (which
took place about 13.7 billion years ago), the universe was a hot,
murky mess, with no light radiating out. Because there is no residual
light from that early epoch, scientists can't observe any traces of
it.

But about 400,000 years after the Big Bang, temperatures in the
universe cooled, electrons and protons joined to form neutral hydrogen
(meaning it had no charge), and the murk cleared. Some time before 1
billion years after the Big Bang, neutral hydrogen began to form stars
in the first galaxies, which radiated energy and changed the hydrogen
back to being ionized, or charged. This was what astronomers call the
reionization period.

But while astronomers know that this period was over by about the time
the universe was 1 billion years old, they don't know exactly when it
began — when the first stars and galaxies began to illuminate the
universe. They also don't know whether reionization started gradually
or instantly.

To help answer this question a team of astronomers led by Masami Ouchi
of the Carnegie Observatories used a technique for finding some of the
early, extremely distant galaxies.

"We look for 'dropout' galaxies," Ouchi said. "We use progressively
redder filters that reveal increasing wavelengths of light and watch
which galaxies disappear from or 'dropout' of images made using those
filters."

Dropout galaxies

The specific wavelengths of light at which the 'dropout' galaxies
appear can tell astronomer's their distance and age.

Ouchi and his colleagues studied an area over 100 times larger than
any previous such study and so had a larger sample of galaxies.

"Plus, we were able to confirm one galaxy's age," Ouchi said. "Since
all the galaxies were found using the same dropout technique, they are
likely to be the same age."

The team's observations were made from 2006 to 2009 with the
wide-field camera of the 8.3-meter Subaru Telescope in Hawaii.

Ouchi and his team compared their observations with those from other
studies looked at the rates of star formation, which can be gleaned
from data on the density and brightness of galaxies, and found that
they were dramatically lower from 800 millions years to about one
billion years after the Big Bang, than thereafter.

Accordingly, they calculated that the rate of ionization would be very
slow during this early time, because of this low star-formation rate.

"We were really surprised that the rate of ionization seems so low,
which would constitute a contradiction with the claim of NASA's WMAP
satellite. It concluded that reionization started no later than 600
million years after the Big Bang," Ouchi said.

"We think this riddle might be explained by more efficient ionizing
photon production rates in early galaxies," he added. "The formation
of massive stars may have been much more vigorous than in today's
galaxies. Fewer, massive stars produce more ionizing photons than many
smaller stars."

Ouchi's findings will be detailed in a December issue of the
Astrophysical Journal.

--
Bob.


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Desertphile  
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 More options Nov 7, 2:56 am
Newsgroups: talk.origins
From: Desertphile <desertph...@invalid-address.net>
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2009 18:56:12 -0700
Local: Sat, Nov 7 2009 2:56 am
Subject: Re: News: Some of the Universe's First Galaxies Discovered.
On Fri, 06 Nov 2009 22:39:25 GMT, Ye Old One <use...@mcsuk.net>
wrote:

> Some of the Universe's First Galaxies Discovered
> By SPACE.com staff

> http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/091106-earliest-galaxies-univer...

> posted: 06 November 2009
> 01:04 pm ET

> A new survey has found 22 of the earliest galaxies to form in the
> universe, confirming the age of one at just 787 million years after
> the theoretical Big Bang.

Huh? Is the Big Bang still "theoretical?"

--
http://desertphile.org
Desertphile's Desert Soliloquy. WARNING: view with plenty of water
"Why aren't resurrections from the dead noteworthy?" -- Jim Rutz


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J. J. Lodder  
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 More options Nov 7, 9:17 am
Newsgroups: talk.origins
From: nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder)
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 09:17:46 +0100
Local: Sat, Nov 7 2009 9:17 am
Subject: Re: News: Some of the Universe's First Galaxies Discovered.

Of course.
All theories are theoretical,

Jan


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Bob Casanova  
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 More options Nov 7, 8:03 pm
Newsgroups: talk.origins
From: Bob Casanova <nos...@buzz.off>
Date: Sat, 07 Nov 2009 12:03:03 -0700
Local: Sat, Nov 7 2009 8:03 pm
Subject: Re: News: Some of the Universe's First Galaxies Discovered.
On Fri, 06 Nov 2009 18:56:12 -0700, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by Desertphile
<desertph...@invalid-address.net>:

Yes. But in the scientific sense rather than the general
one.
--

Bob C.

"Evidence confirming an observation is
evidence that the observation is wrong."
                          - McNameless


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Desertphile  
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 More options Nov 7, 10:32 pm
Newsgroups: talk.origins
From: Desertphile <desertph...@invalid-address.net>
Date: Sat, 07 Nov 2009 14:32:59 -0700
Local: Sat, Nov 7 2009 10:32 pm
Subject: Re: News: Some of the Universe's First Galaxies Discovered.
On Sat, 7 Nov 2009 09:17:46 +0100, nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J.

The Big Bang isn't a theory: Big Bang Theory is.

--
http://desertphile.org
Desertphile's Desert Soliloquy. WARNING: view with plenty of water
"Why aren't resurrections from the dead noteworthy?" -- Jim Rutz


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Paul J Gans  
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 More options Nov 8, 2:26 am
Newsgroups: talk.origins
From: Paul J Gans <g...@panix.com>
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 01:26:21 +0000 (UTC)
Local: Sun, Nov 8 2009 2:26 am
Subject: Re: News: Some of the Universe's First Galaxies Discovered.

And will be for the foreseeable future.  It is one of those
things we can't replicate in the lab and so must be inferred.

Of course this gets creationists all riled up.  I guess they
want proof in the form of an ancient document written by
the "Big Banger".

Actually, all it is is circumstantial evidence.  Unbeknownst
to creationists, we actually KILL people in the US based
on circumstantial evidence, an uncivilized activity in which
I'll bet they participate.

--
   --- Paul J. Gans


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Bob Casanova  
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 More options Nov 8, 10:01 pm
Newsgroups: talk.origins
From: Bob Casanova <nos...@buzz.off>
Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2009 14:01:10 -0700
Local: Sun, Nov 8 2009 10:01 pm
Subject: Re: News: Some of the Universe's First Galaxies Discovered.
On Sun, 8 Nov 2009 01:26:21 +0000 (UTC), the following
appeared in talk.origins, posted by Paul J Gans
<g...@panix.com>:

"Chantilly Space"?

Sorry... ;-)

>Actually, all it is is circumstantial evidence.  Unbeknownst
>to creationists, we actually KILL people in the US based
>on circumstantial evidence, an uncivilized activity in which
>I'll bet they participate.

I'm more concerned with the fact that people are sometimes
executed based solely on eyewitness testimony, with *no*
hard evidence at all. Not often, but it happens.
--

Bob C.

"Evidence confirming an observation is
evidence that the observation is wrong."
                          - McNameless


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Friar Broccoli  
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 More options Nov 8, 10:16 pm
Newsgroups: talk.origins
From: Friar Broccoli <elia...@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 13:16:22 -0800 (PST)
Local: Sun, Nov 8 2009 10:16 pm
Subject: Re: News: Some of the Universe's First Galaxies Discovered.
On Nov 7, 4:32 pm, Desertphile <desertph...@invalid-address.net>
wrote:

The only thing we can "see" is the CMR, from about
300,000 years after the presumed big bang.  Everything
before that is theoretical.   (I am one of those people who
thinks all this infinite density and inflation stuff is just
fevered nonsense, although I certainly do not have a
better explanation.)

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Paul J Gans  
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 More options Nov 9, 3:27 am
Newsgroups: talk.origins
From: Paul J Gans <g...@panix.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 02:27:48 +0000 (UTC)
Local: Mon, Nov 9 2009 3:27 am
Subject: Re: News: Some of the Universe's First Galaxies Discovered.

It has been shown over and over again that eyewitness testimony
is often -- not always -- terribly inaccurate.

And I agree.  It kills people.

--
   --- Paul J. Gans


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Bob Casanova  
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 More options Nov 9, 11:06 pm
Newsgroups: talk.origins
From: Bob Casanova <nos...@buzz.off>
Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2009 15:06:02 -0700
Local: Mon, Nov 9 2009 11:06 pm
Subject: Re: News: Some of the Universe's First Galaxies Discovered.
On Mon, 9 Nov 2009 02:27:48 +0000 (UTC), the following
appeared in talk.origins, posted by Paul J Gans
<g...@panix.com>:

That's why convictions based solely on such testimony bother
me more than those based on evidence, even circumstantial
evidence (which has a really wide range of relevance).

>And I agree.  It kills people.

"Laws don't kill people; juries kill people."
--

Bob C.

"Evidence confirming an observation is
evidence that the observation is wrong."
                          - McNameless


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carlip-nos...@physics.ucdavis.edu  
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 More options Nov 11, 2:39 am
Newsgroups: talk.origins
From: carlip-nos...@physics.ucdavis.edu
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 01:39:23 +0000 (UTC)
Local: Wed, Nov 11 2009 2:39 am
Subject: Re: News: Some of the Universe's First Galaxies Discovered.

Friar Broccoli <elia...@gmail.com> wrote:

[...]

> The only thing we can "see" is the CMR, from about
> 300,000 years after the presumed big bang.  Everything
> before that is theoretical.  

That depends on what you mean by "see."  We see the abundances
of light elements, which very closely matchs the predictions for
primordial nucleosynthesis (*way* before the CMBR).  We also see
the spectrum of fluctuations of the CMBR, which is necessarily a
consequence of the irregularities that came before; we can compare
these to theoretical predictions, and obtain some extremely good
quantitative tests.  

We should eventually be able to observe the cosmic neutrino and
gravitational wave backgrounds, which also come from way before
the CMBR, though it will take a while for out technology to get
good enough to see these.

Steve Carlip


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J. J. Lodder  
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 More options Nov 11, 11:15 am
Newsgroups: talk.origins
From: nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 11:15:42 +0100
Local: Wed, Nov 11 2009 11:15 am
Subject: Re: News: Some of the Universe's First Galaxies Discovered.

That seems excessvely optimistic to me,

Jan


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Friar Broccoli  
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 More options Nov 11, 6:57 pm
Newsgroups: talk.origins
From: Friar Broccoli <elia...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 09:57:48 -0800 (PST)
Local: Wed, Nov 11 2009 6:57 pm
Subject: Re: News: Some of the Universe's First Galaxies Discovered.
On Nov 10, 8:39 pm, carlip-nos...@physics.ucdavis.edu wrote:

> Friar Broccoli <elia...@gmail.com> wrote:

> [...]

> > The only thing we can "see" is the CMR, from about
> > 300,000 years after the presumed big bang.  Everything
> > before that is theoretical.

> That depends on what you mean by "see."

 I meant detect electromagnetic radiation.

> We see the abundances of light elements,
> which very closely matchs the predictions for
> primordial nucleosynthesis (*way* before the CMBR).

 And, well after inflation (which most bothers me),
 if memory serves.

> We also see
> the spectrum of fluctuations of the CMBR, which is necessarily a
> consequence of the irregularities that came before; we can compare
> these to theoretical predictions, and obtain some extremely good
> quantitative tests.

 We are, as I understand it, talking about theoretical
 "predictions" made after the observations.

 While it would be ridiculous for me to claim that I understand
 the theoretical model(s?) you are referring to, I have spent my
 entire life watching this theory evolve, and what I have seen
 has not given me confidence that it makes any sense.

 The idea of an essentially infinitely dense starting condition
 in an expanding space/time has been around for as long as I can
 remember so it must have been dreamt up in the late 50s.

 Why was space/time expanding? - mostly one just heard dogmatic
 assertions that to ask what was going on before was meaningless:
 There was no time or space before the big-bang.  Since time
 (whatever else it is) is the measure of changing events, this
 amounted to an assertion that there were no events before
 the Big-Bang which is obvious nonsense.  We got similar
 nonsense about what was going on outside our universe: nothing,
 there just wasn't anything there.  I could accept: probably not
 accessible, and almost certainly not 3+1 dimensions, but: not
 there?  Just silly.

 I call this initial hypothetical dense expanding state, the first
 call to the tooth fairy - and I don't have all that much trouble
 with it; after all, something started what we see, and in the
 absence of a better idea, why not credit the tooth-fairy?

 Then somebody noticed that the CMBR was too smooth across the sky
 to be explained by a simple expansion from an infinitely dense
 hypothetical state, so up popped the inflation model.  How does
 that work?: well sometime within the first "hour" (or minute or
 second or fraction thereof) of our universe's existence it
 expanded at a rate vastly exceeding the speed of light (oddly
 similar to a claim regularly made by creationists) and then it
 abruptly stopped expanding.  Why did the expansion start?  What
 fundamental principle explains why it stopped?  Why did
 expansion decelerate till 5 billion years ago and then start
 accelerating again?  I haven't heard a hint of an explanation in
 terms of even hypothetical underlying principles.  Do you know
 of such principles?

 I call inflation the second call to the tooth-fairy.  I think
 the tooth-fairy is being over worked here, and it just is NOT
 fair!  She should have AT LEAST the same labor rights
 protections as is granted to children.

 To add to my suspicions, I remember following the release of
 progressively more detailed limits to the variation in the CMBR
 across the sky during the 90's - and while I had no
 understanding at all of what the numbers meant, I do recall
 increasing cries of anguish from cosmologists since the
 variation was so small it was going to make explaining how stars
 formed within the first 3 billion years almost impossible.
 Then when the final numbers came out there was nothing but
 silence - all the problems just seemed to disappear.

 Well, maybe as you have stated there is a good consisted
 theoretical model out there, but I've been hearing that for at
 least 30 years - of models which have obviously been shown to
 be false.  Who predicted dark matter till the observations
 required it?  From where I sit it looks like somebody would
 have come up with *some* model which validated those two calls
 to the tooth fairy no matter how the observational numbers had
 come up.

 Well, it all looks like gerrymandering to me. Let me stress
 that I have NOTHING against the Tooth Fairy, but I say she
 deserves to be selected in a fair and unbiased process!

> We should eventually be able to observe the cosmic neutrino and
> gravitational wave backgrounds, which also come from way before
> the CMBR, though it will take a while for out technology to get
> good enough to see these.

 Well, if somebody publishes some very narrowly confined numbers
 predicting the observed values before the measurements are
 made, I will become a believer.  Based on my current knowledge
 and understanding - the Tooth Fairy is my guide.

 Thanks for your reply, which is much appreciated.


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